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Suggestion for LBM format
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Thoughts Reply with quote

Rocknjim wrote:
I wondered about a possible addition to your LBM lessons. It's something that could be done for any of your series and seems like it should be pretty simple. Maybe you could include a phrase (4 bars, 8 bars, someting short), complicated or simple, with no tab at all, just music. You could play the full phrase a couple times with rhythm. This could be a "transcribe" exercise that you provide the answer to in the next LBM. It could also be a "first lesson of the month" addition where you provide a transcribe phrase along with the answer to the previous first of the month phrase. You could make it an optional, extra credit for those of us who might want to and others could do it or not as they wished. The cool thing is that whether a person choose to do it or not, it would be there in the lesson, making them feel guilty if they didn't. Like my mom used to do when I didn't practice!!


Jim,

Pretty simple? Laughing Thanks for the suggestion but realistically, with well over 200 archived lesson chapters spanning eight courses and sequels it would be next to impossible to implement. In retrospect, there will always be things that we could have done different or better, and one of my longtime students (e.g. Larry) would certainly attest to the fact that what I've been cranking out over the past year and a half is the best work of my teaching career. Unfortunately, there's just not enough time to justify what would amount to a massive rebuilding process, so I have no choice but to go with the old "If it ain't broke..." card. Wink

However, it is a creative suggestion that I may be able to address in more of an online student/member context down the road. You know, like "Here's an audio clip for you guys to transcribe..." and later posting the accurate notation. The same thing could be done with a chord-melody arranging challenge, like "Try harmonizing the following melody with this set of chord changes."

One thing about me is that I do get inspired by suggestions and discussion. For instance, I have an entire new "Cool Chords" series that stemmed directly from a forum conversation regarding comping and walking bass just a few weeks ago, and I'm already about 9-10 editions deep into it and using it for my LBM program. At some point I'll get some samples posted in the Arranger's Workshop area. All for now...

- Mark
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Rocknjim



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Thoughts Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Pretty simple? Laughing - Mark


Point taken and I completely agree. The only thing simple about that idea was the moron who typed it! I cut computer code for a living and the phrase "pretty simple" is scary when it comes from people with no background to base it on. I guess I fixated on the LBM because we were in the LBM part of the forum.
I think I need to add transcribing to my regular practice but since my practice time is limited anyway, doing it everyday may not be practical.

Thanks for the comments Mark.

Take care.

Jim
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Rocknjim



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Thoughts Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Pretty simple? Laughing - Mark


Point taken and I completely agree. The only thing simple about that idea was the moron who typed it! I cut computer code for a living and the phrase "pretty simple" is scary when it comes from people with no background to base it on. I guess I fixated on the LBM because we were in the LBM part of the forum.
I think I need to add transcribing to my regular practice but since my practice time is limited anyway, doing it everyday may not be practical.

Thanks for the comments Mark.

Take care.

Jim
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Thoughts Reply with quote

Rocknjim wrote:
Mark wrote:
Pretty simple? Laughing - Mark


Point taken and I completely agree. The only thing simple about that idea was the moron who typed it! I cut computer code for a living and the phrase "pretty simple" is scary when it comes from people with no background to base it on. I guess I fixated on the LBM because we were in the LBM part of the forum.
I think I need to add transcribing to my regular practice but since my practice time is limited anyway, doing it everyday may not be practical.


Jim - Go easy on yourself, you had a good idea there! Mark explained pretty well why it just doesn't fit with his lesson plan. Once you're into your third or fourth year of LBM you'll see why changing the program would be a massive undertaking on Mark's part. And we don't want to keep the coach away from producing new material, do we?

I don't know what your experience level is, but you can actually incorporate your idea into your practice regimen. Select a phrase that has that sound you want to capture, slow it down if it's too fast, then transcribe it using a program that will play it back. Simple, just as you said! In the perfect world you would do this every day. In reality, most of us who study our fingers off every day transcribe when there is some extra time available. I usually spend time on it on weekends or days off. I've been known to take a week's vacation and spend every day practicing and transcribing. Those last couple of days are very productive.

You're on the right track, more students should follow Mark's advice and transcribe on a regular basis.
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Advice Reply with quote

Rocknjim wrote:
I think I need to add transcribing to my regular practice but since my practice time is limited anyway, doing it everyday may not be practical


Jim,

One of the points I often make addresses two study areas that are richly rewarding yet potentially time-consuming: arranging and transcribing. In my book it's critical to do both on a regular basis, but the amount of time invested isn't critical at all, and it's the illusion of the massive time commitment that prevents so many players from getting started and therefore reaping the rewards.

My advice is to set aside a mere 10-15 minutes each day, and make a long list of things that you would like to transcribe. It could range from a handful of BB King blues licks to the melody of a song to a full-blown Wes solo. Understand that the idea isn't to complete anything, just to get started and achieve your 10-15 minutes per day goal.

If you follow my advice, here's what will happen:

1) Within a few weeks you'll be totally addicted to transcribing and that 10-15 minutes will be the favorite part of your practice day. But DON'T increase the time yet, because...

2) You won't get frustrated by an endeavor that is potentially frustrating. Devoting a short amount of time keeps your expectations low and realistic, making you grateful for anything you do get. After all, how can you expect to accomplish a lot in just 10-15 minutes, right? Wink

3) As you continue you'll see that your ability to grasp more and more information in that small time frame increases, only logical due to the improvement you'll witness by challenging your ear. This revelation was psychologically HUGE for me, and led me to the real epiphany...

4) Once the reality has set in that you are now taking lessons with great players who personally mean something unique to YOU and your goals, plus start picking up all of the subtle nuances that non-transcribers fail to experience by playing along with those players? Well, nothing like it, and at that point you're going to start dreaming of what you can become by ramping up that little initial commitment of just 10-15 minutes a day. I used to pinch myself and think, "Wow, I'm taking private lessons with Oscar Peterson every day, and I'm learning and playing things that I've never heard on guitar!" How many can say that? Yet the truth is that they can all choose to do it.

Everyone has time constraints, but I have yet to meet a student who can't justify that amount of time. What I'm recommending is exactly what I did almost thirty years ago, and it was the best decision I've ever made. I'd like to believe that the results are obvious whenever people hear me play nowadays. It's not about talent. It's about the path. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's how I fit the transcribing in when I have limited time.

When I have some extra time, I load a tune I want to transcribe into Transcribe! software. I mark the measures and chord changes in Transcribe!. I then save it.

When I am rushed, I pull up the file and, one measure at a time, listen to the recording (maybe at a slow speed), and play it back. I don't write anything down. I just make sure I can play along with the track perfectly. Just do as many measures as you have time for.

If you are just starting out, record a folk tune or a TV soundtrack into a program like Audacity or Garage Band. Bounce the file to mp3. Load the mp3 into Transcribe! and mark the measures. Put it aside for a few days so you forget. Then come back to the track and transcribe (or transplay) as above.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, here are some easy, but effective tricks to making transcribing easier:

1) Buy a good pair of open-back headphones and use them. You can hear bass better on headphones than speakers.

2) Buy Transcribe! software -- it's better than Amazing Slow Downer. Use the slow mo and loop functions.

3) Sing everything!

4) Start easy and give yourself time. This is a lifetime committment.

5) Don't over-stress about writing passages down. It's good to do so, but not essential.

6) Transcribe music you like. It actually makes it easier.

7) Perfection is the enemy of the good. Don't try to transcribe perfectly at first. You have plenty of time for that. Just get as close as you can.

I've been surprised that a lot of good transcribers tell me that playing by ear was initially their weakest skill. It was for me, and transcribing is now a strength. Anyone can do this; it just takes a lot of work.
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: Transcribing Tips Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
7) Perfection is the enemy of the good. Don't try to transcribe perfectly at first. You have plenty of time for that. Just get as close as you can.


Len,

Excellent thoughts/tips in both posts. We really should repost this stuff over in the transcribing forum so those interested won't miss it.

Two things you said resonate most with me. One is to play along until you can play it perfectly without writing it down. This assures that you are still getting the maximum ear mileage and nuance benefits that players like Wes, Pass, and GB received. At that point what you're writing out has now become part of YOUR language vocabulary, not someone elses. It's important to keep in mind the fact that no one owns the language. We just borrow it. Wink

The other thing is the perfectionism that you speak of, because again that is an example of setting expectations unrealistically high and then running the risk of giving up the fight if you don't reach that level.

When I first made a serious commitment to transcribe on a daily basis, I'd get really frustrated if I couldn't get a passage down, so after a couple of weeks I gave up and told myself that I wasn't ready for transcribing. Then about a week later I started to notice an obvious improvement in my playing, but I just couldn't put my finger on the reason. It finally dawned on me that perhaps it was the effort to strain my ear alone that was responsible for making what I already knew sound more convincing. In other words, it wasn't any particular piece of music that I had learned or attempted to learn, but the process itself that mattered most.

That revelation was like a "light bulb moment" that changed everything for me. I realized that I needed to ignore my perfectionism and settle for even 5% of what I was trying to learn, because it was 5% more than I had before. So I recommitted myself to transcribe every day no matter what the result, and then I really started to make BIG progress.

It's funny how unrealistic expectations and perfectionism can hold you back from achieving your goals, which is why I recommend a small amount of time devoted to transcribing each day in the beginning stages.

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely! Transcribing is indeed the path. Where else can you take a private lesson with a legend, as long as you like, in the privacy of your home, repeat things until you have absorbed them, and at no cost (except, of course, for the price of the CD)? And, you can blend your desired influences to boot! Unreal.
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, On the subject of playing a lick until "you own it," how important is it to get the line up to speed? I've noticed with the blues, I get more benefit from playing along very slowly, because I pick up more nuance -- and nuance is the name of the game with the blues. Sometimes, I don't work the lick up to speed, but am satisfied if I can nail it at a slow speed. Is that a sound practice habit?
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Mark
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Slow vs Fast Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Mark, On the subject of playing a lick until "you own it," how important is it to get the line up to speed? I've noticed with the blues, I get more benefit from playing along very slowly, because I pick up more nuance -- and nuance is the name of the game with the blues. Sometimes, I don't work the lick up to speed, but am satisfied if I can nail it at a slow speed. Is that a sound practice habit?


Len,

Sure. To me, once you get beyond trying to play a lick along with the source (especially if the tempo is fast or the line is double-timed), speed is only relative to your intended use. In either case, slow before fast in order to truly internalize a lick and make it part of your vocabulary is always the best way to go. All for now...

- Mark
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Tips Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Two things you said resonate most with me. One is to play along until you can play it perfectly without writing it down. This assures that you are still getting the maximum ear mileage and nuance benefits that players like Wes, Pass, and GB received. At that point what you're writing out has now become part of YOUR language vocabulary, not someone elses. It's important to keep in mind the fact that no one owns the language. We just borrow it. Wink

The other thing is the perfectionism that you speak of, because again that is an example of setting expectations unrealistically high and then running the risk of giving up the fight if you don't reach that level.


Mark,

I've striven to transcribe in the fashion that you and Lenny describe with some degree of success. One example is Miles' four chorus "Summertime" solo. I learned one chorus per week until I could sing and play along with the recording. I never had to transcribe a note of that one because it is slow enough and Miles didn't double time or go outside. (On a side note, it's amazing how he revisited and developed motifs on the changes.)

However, when trying to learn a Bird or Dizzy solo at 250bpm, I just can't remember a single bar one day to the next. I fine myself slowing down and notating as much as I can in a couple of hours and picking up from there the next time. It's not only the tempo, they usually are so complex it takes a while to make sense of the harmony and movement. It's a great learning experience to memorize AND understand the function of every note.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, when trying to learn a Bird or Dizzy solo at 250bpm, I just can't remember a single bar one day to the next. I fine myself slowing down and notating as much as I can in a couple of hours and picking up from there the next time. It's not only the tempo, they usually are so complex it takes a while to make sense of the harmony and movement. It's a great learning experience to memorize AND understand the function of every note.


Larry, I know the feeling. On those fast, complicated lines, I just take small bites at a slow tempo -- maybe 2 beats at a time. My goal is to first be able to sing the line, second be able to play the line, and only then notate the line. However, I often settle for any of the three!
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