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Don MacArthur
Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 50
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Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: Soloing over Mister P.C.? |
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I'd like to hear from members of the group on how they might handle playing a soloing over Mr. PC, a Swing Blues Tune by John Coltrane. The chord progression in Cm and is found on the chart on the JCS page. In short, it starts out with Cm7 for two measures, Bb occurs measures 3, 7 & 11, Fm7 in 4 & 5, and Dm7(b5) in 10 and G7 altered in 11.
Thanks,
Don |
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Mark VM Coach
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 479 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Soloing over Mister P.C.? |
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Don MacArthur wrote: | I'd like to hear from members of the group on how they might handle playing a soloing over Mr. PC, a Swing Blues Tune by John Coltrane. The chord progression in Cm and is found on the chart on the JCS page. In short, it starts out with Cm7 for two measures, Bb occurs measures 3, 7 & 11, Fm7 in 4 & 5, and Dm7(b5) in 10 and G7 altered in 11. |
Don,
Well, since no one's chimed in I'll give you a thought or two on Mr. PC, one of my favorite minor blues tunes. One of the things I like most about it is the fact that you can blend in changes playing with blues, especially over the Fm7, Dm7b5, and G7alt. With that in mind, try borrowing your jazz language ideas from the II-V of the parent major key (Eb), and don't forget that F minor works over the D and G chords, too.
The Bb that occurs in the measures you cite is incidental and needn't be specifically addressed in the solo. It just supports the head and adds a little personality to the tune. Anyway, the notes of a Bb (Bb, D, and F) are all tonal and within the realm of C minor, so if you do happen to lean on them at those times it can serve to support the movement. Strictly an option, though.
I assume that you and others may have heard my rendition of Mr. PC that I recorded last year, which features a rubato intro? If not, click here. I intend to transcribe it for release in the near future. All for now...
- Mark _________________ "Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Don MacArthur
Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 50
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Mark,
Thank you for the reply. I was just listening to your solo over Mr. PC this morning trying to get an idea of how my solo should sound. It sounds like you are playing some major blues phrases in there. If so, over which chords, etc.
I also figured out that I could just ignore the Bb. But what are you playing over Cm? I assume Cm blues - but anything else?
I'll give your ideas a shot tonight. Lots of experimenting to do.
Thanks,
Don |
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Mark VM Coach
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 479 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: Mr. PC |
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Don MacArthur wrote: | I was just listening to your solo over Mr. PC this morning trying to get an idea of how my solo should sound. It sounds like you are playing some major blues phrases in there. If so, over which chords, etc.
I also figured out that I could just ignore the Bb. But what are you playing over Cm? I assume Cm blues - but anything else? |
Don,
I had to re-listen to my solo before replying , but no.. I didn't detect any major blues ideas per se. Of course, there is a certain relativity between minor and major keys and resulting phrases that you might be recognizing.
For instance, the movement between Gb, G, and Bb would constitute a major blues sound in the parent key of Eb (b3 to 3 to 5), whereas the same group of notes relevant to Cm7 would give you b5 to 5 to b7.
In either case, I was playing C minor blues over the Cm7 for almost the entire solo, except for a taste of changes playing at bar four leading to the Fm7, but just in a couple of spots. Always keep in mind the fact that minor blues is a rich arena. You've got the blues scale lick possibilities involving the b5, the basic minor pentatonic and its many variations, the potential of mixing in the 2nd/9th (D) for color, the use of minor double-stops, and the syncopation itself.
Many jazzers go to great lengths to play melodically, as if the sound of the blues is somehow harmonically limiting. Having studied from Benson and others with a deep affinity for that genre, I see/hear no limitations when it comes to the language of the blues, regardless of the tune.
- Mark _________________ "Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Dean
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Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 287 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: |
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The only thing I can chim in on this thread is ,Mark I really liked your rendition of Mr. PC,I enjoyed the intro with the slow hand.Then you just took off.As always ,very cool. _________________ What don't kill you makes you stronger |
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Mark VM Coach
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 479 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Another Minor Blues |
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Dean wrote: | The only thing I can chim in on this thread is ,Mark I really liked your rendition of Mr. PC,I enjoyed the intro with the slow hand.Then you just took off.As always ,very cool. |
Dean,
Thanks, man. The "slow hand" intro that you speak of is a snapshot of the tune itself, based on Cm7, Fm7, Dm7b5, and G7#9. Keeping things on topic, check out my recording of Dizzy Gillespie's Birk's Works, another minor blues tune that I intend to release at the JCS page in the near future. Hope you guys enjoy it!
- Mark _________________ "Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Bob Parsons
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 27 Location: Anchorage, AK
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Mark VM Coach
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 479 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:26 am Post subject: Re: Mr PC |
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Bob,
Nice blues solo, my friend. I enjoyed it. Look, no flaming from me. Whatever works for you works, but when you examine a minor blues or a minor standard (e.g. Sugar, Blue Bossa, etc), there are certain indicators of whether you are in a pure minor key (Cm - Ebmaj) or not. One is the IV chord, because F is inherently not a primary minor chord in the key of Bb. Any II-V that contains the b5 of the II (Ab, which is not in the key of Bb) is also a dead giveaway that you are in a pure minor key.
Having said all that, I can understand where you're coming from, because there is certainly a relationship to the key of Bb. After all, in a swing blues in that key you would find the Cm7 and it would be common to approach it via the Dm7b5 and the G7alt at bars seven/eight. However, when the tonal center is minor in a jazz tune, you're either in pure minor like this tune and those mentioned above, or dorian (e.g. So What, Impressions, Little Sunflower, etc).
Now, your solo has an abundance of blues and minor pentatonic licks, with an occasional 9th (D) and some chromatic passing tones here and there. But as a test, try laying on the A over the Fm7, or the Dm7b5, or the G7alt and you'll catch the dissonance spawned by an important note in the key of Bb. When you play a solo that leans heavily on C minor blues and pentatonic licks, there is no A or Ab, so you're in a safe zone. However, once you start blending more jazz language and change-running into the solo, those notes become more important. Bottom line is that I can always tell whether it's pure minor (Cm/Eb) or dorian (Cm/Bb) by playing the 6th of the minor key (Ab or A) and letting my ear decide.
- Mark _________________ "Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Bob Parsons
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 27 Location: Anchorage, AK
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: Cminor Blues |
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Mark,
I'm totally in agreement with your answer and, I know this may sound schizo, but I teach exactly what you said. I should have been more clear that I really like that Bb sound over the top of these progressions, as opposed to that being the more natural key center.
But you got me to be more self conscious about the sixth of the Cminor which a Bb major scale produces and the flatted sixth that the Eb produces.
I think that most, who play at a certain level, move and shift a bit to take advantage of tonality like that. When that Fm comes up, its like a Bb7/9 chord in that the major 7 of the Bb has to be flatted. But that is a cool sound in the Bb structure, one that I am trying to take advantage of more and more.
So, in a nutshell, Eb is the most natural scale and I agree that "cool" notes outside that scale can best be assimilated if we first know what scale we are augmenting. Bb gives more of a segue to different sounds, and solving the chord structure that Bb runs into (minor IV chord especially) is especially important to note and consider.
With all that said. Your Mr.PC is very cool and thanks for sharing that and for your response -- it gave me a chance to see my omission and clarify my own thinking !!
bp |
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Mark VM Coach
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 479 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: C minor Blues |
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Bob Parsons wrote: | But you got me to be more self conscious about the sixth of the Cminor which a Bb major scale produces and the flatted sixth that the Eb produces. |
Bob,
You're SO diplomatic, man. Look, I consider you an excellent player with a very good ear, and just last night I was having a conversation with a buddy (superb guitarist) who mentioned how much he liked and respected your playing.
Because of your ear and affinity for blues language, I highly doubt that you are relegating yourself to viewing anything within the narrow context of a particular scale. When a player's solos are language-based, he knows what sounds good or not, regardless of how it may be analyzed from the "proper" classroom perspective. For me, I only use scale terms as a very general reference to the overall sound I'm going after, because in reality every note counts if you use it in the right context.
Finally, the reason why I elaborated on this particular subject wasn't so much for your benefit, although if it caused you to widen the microscope further with regards to the use of 6ths in minor, that's cool. I see my purpose in this forum as a potential guide for other players who are perhaps less experienced, confused, seeking knowledge, etc. If they read what you or I have discussed a week, month, or year down the road and get something out of it that saves them time? Mission accomplished...
- Mark _________________ "Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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