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Diminished Door
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:52 am    Post subject: Re: diminished Returns Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
I gotta say thanks. AND Woland, I would love to hear some ideas from what you just posted...

bp


Heh - Bob, I only wish I could play it. Btw - I should have been more
precise and say "Over G7 being a used as DOMINANT chord you can
play Dm, Fm etc" - if you have G7 as I chord in eg blues it does not
apply.
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: diminished Returns Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
Bob Parsons wrote:
I would love to hear some ideas from what you just posted...

bp


Heh - Bob, I only wish I could play it.


Woland, a guy could take your statement two ways. Both very gracefully because you're sounding very honest here. But, you seem to be saying that you either lack the technology to post an audio example, or that you lack the playing ability to bring a witness to your statement. If the former, perhaps that would be a good topic, and I have no problem with that. If the latter, then I would say, in my humble opinion, that I think this forum is for less theoretical positions, like that of an art critique, but more of, "this works for me" position from the artist.
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Minor Connections Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


Bob,

For starters, Martino explained in his "Linear Expressions" preface that he always thinks minor and tweaks his vocabulary according to the chord progression at hand. That statement really struck me at the time, because I had spent a lot of time transcribing his work from the seventies and had come to the same conclusion. "Light bulb" moment for me back then.

and

Len,

Good to hear that, and thanks for sharing your diminished thoughts. While it's good to understand the underlying theory, the one thing I should bring to the surface is the fact that I'm not thinking about the relationship to the G7 at all. My harmonic approach is partially summed up in the Minor Connections title of this series, because this is all about connecting minor ideas under one umbrella (D minor), then using it "as is" or superimposing it a la Pat Martino over the situation at hand.

For instance, minus the opening string bends, you could lay all of the rest over the first four bars of something like All Blues (in G) by Miles Davis and it would work like a charm. Try it out once you have it down.

Bottom line? When I encounter a G7 and want to get melodic over it, either inside or outside, I'm thinking D minor. It all relates to core jazz language and the fact that superimposing minor ideas over dominant situations is more appealing to my ear and easier on my mind. Wink





Mark,

This thread in pretty incredible; I just ordered 'Linear Expressions.'
Man, this whole 'concept'... 'so works.'


Available at youtube:


Pat Martino - Multiple Substitutions Demonstration



A quote directly from Pat Martino;

"..."Linear Expressions" contains information based upon use of the
improvisational Mi 7th motif.

The Mi7th stems from the Perf 5th of the V7th chord, (in other words, G7 = Dmi7).

Since the V7th chord is generated by the Diminished chord thru
lowering any single tone by 1/2 step, four of them are produced, and
they rest a mi3rd apart. When using alterations with more dissonance
to the V7th form, (#5, b5, #9, b9, etc.) I'd recommend for you to
begin transposing any line form (discussed within Linear Expressions)
in mi3rds. A good example would be to use separately against G7
(b13) one of the following: Dmi7, Fmi7, Abmi7 or Bmi7. Or,
combinations of them in different orders. ..."



-Kb

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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Minor Connections Reply with quote

kbgtr001 wrote:
This thread in pretty incredible; I just ordered 'Linear Expressions.'
Man, this whole 'concept'... 'so works.'


Kb,

To me, the greatest benefit is that it allows the improviser or composer to retain their vocabulary and therefore their personality regardless of the harmony. It's like speaking and being able to use your favorite adjectives or phrases in a variety of situations.

It also bypasses the mental complexity of having different sets of scales or modes to contend with when you're trying to operate "on the fly" and tell a story. This isn't to say that those options aren't on the table and valid, but when I discovered that the same cool lick that worked over D minor also worked over FOUR other families of chords, it was like getting five times the value for the work I had invested in that one lick.

Do the math and if you've got 5 great minor licks you end up with 25 potential applications. If you've got 50 it becomes 250 applications, all while preserving your personality as a player. Start blending them and the possibilities become infinite. This serves to underline my belief that jazz needn't be a complicated genre if you find the simple path to creativity, just as Charlies Mingus said in that famous quote below. All for now...

- Mark
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Minor Connections Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


Kb,

To me, the greatest benefit is that it allows the improviser or composer to retain their vocabulary and therefore their personality regardless of the harmony. It's like speaking and being able to use your favorite adjectives or phrases in a variety of situations.



Mark,

This thread is in a great place. It's really touched
on a most important 'core concept' for improvisation.

It places 'scale thinking' as part of the 'process'
in improvisational thinking rather than as an 'abstraction.'

The scale is a point of reference (a map), but the
improviser is free to hear the -sounds/lines/motifs-
that be can created.

In this approach, the scale serves more as a method
for organizing or visualizing a region of the fretboard.

I so relate to your 'light bulb' moment as you describe it.


-Kb


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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Minor Connections Reply with quote

kbgtr001 wrote:
Mark wrote:


Kb,

To me, the greatest benefit is that it allows the improviser or composer to retain their vocabulary and therefore their personality regardless of the harmony. It's like speaking and being able to use your favorite adjectives or phrases in a variety of situations.



Mark,

This thread is in a great place. It's really touched
on a most important 'core concept' for improvisation.

It places 'scale thinking' as part of the 'process'
in improvisational thinking rather than as an 'abstraction.'

The scale is a point of reference (a map), but the
improviser is free to hear the -sounds/lines/motifs-
that be can created.

In this approach, the scale serves more as a method
for organizing or visualizing a region of the fretboard.

I so relate to your 'light bulb' moment as you describe it.


-Kb

Kb, this is exactly how I see scales.When I improv. I see the different scales and work with and around them.

-

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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: Minor Connections Reply with quote

kbgtr001 wrote:
The scale is a point of reference (a map), but the improviser is free to hear the -sounds/lines/motifs- that be can created.

In this approach, the scale serves more as a method for organizing or visualizing a region of the fretboard.


Kb,

Precisely, yet there are further points to be made. It's VERY important to realize that a player like Pat Martino learned the language via imitation first and formed these conceptual findings "after the fact." This is readily apparent to anyone who has listened to his early works with Don Patterson, Eric Kloss, etc, and followed his evolution as an improviser, something that Wolf (Marshall) and I have frequently discussed. For the record, there is no greater authority on PM than Mr. Marshall, his close friend of many years.

In either case, this realization is something that is lost on those who don't learn by ear and mistakenly assume that the knowledge of scales, modes, and arpeggios will somehow magically lead them to the "Promised Language Land." It simply doesn't work that way, and it needs to be firmly reiterated that legendary jazz guitar icons like Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, and George Benson never studied scales at all.

So how important is the knowledge of scales when it comes to improv? For me the answer would be "marginal" at best, but once again I'd prefer to know them than not, despite the fact that these great guitarists lacked that information. When it comes right down to it, I'd rather visualize related chord shapes than scales, but when I review language or improvise, both represent a shadow that lurks in the background. All for now...

- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
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