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John G



Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:29 am    Post subject: Selection Length Reply with quote

Hey friends,

I was wondering what your preference is for transcribing: a short lick, something longer like a melody or a solo chorus, or maybe even an entire multi chorus solo?

The main reason I ask is that sometimes when I learn an entire solo, I feel like the whole thing doesn't work its way into my playing, just a few licks. It seems like I can only play some licks when leading into them from an earlier part in the solo. However, when I transcribe just a short phrase, it is much easier to incorporate it into my improv at will. This may just be an issue of not fully mastering the solo, though I do always work with the solo until I can play from memory along with the recording (which can be pretty challenging at times).

I remember seeing a post a long time ago where someone advocated learning one solo per week. That seemed like complete overkill to me, I really don't think I would get as much out of that as learning one phrase per week.

I'd like to hear if some of you have the same problem, or maybe even a solution.

John
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Selection length Reply with quote

John G wrote:
I was wondering what your preference is for transcribing: a short lick, something longer like a melody or a solo chorus, or maybe even an entire multi chorus solo?


John,

Both methods have validity, depending on what you're trying to learn and accomplish as a player. Even if you do choose to transcribe entire solos, the idea is to absorb the language elements (aka "licks"), but not to fall into the trap of only associating those ideas with that one given solo.

So you either transcribe a solo note-for-note and then pull the information that personally appeals to you, or you go "lick hunting" for just the special moments that stand out above the rest. I've done a LOT of both over the years.

For instance, at one point I was playing Trane's entire 15-chorus Giant Steps solo on a regular basis. Also Oscar Peterson's epic 10-chorus C Jam Blues solo, Montgomery's 9-chorus West Coast Blues solo, Pat Martino's 10-chorus Sunny solo, and so on. Because those improvisations were SO good (no fluff), I felt that it was worthwhile to observe how these great players "connected the dots" through the changes. In the long run I ended up notating my favorite licks from those solos and many others, transposing them into a neutral key (C) for A/B comparisons and study. That was the most optimum way to get the language into my playing.

On the other hand, I can distinctly remember a time period when I isolated a particular series of chords (e.g. II-Vs, I-VI-II-V turnarounds, etc) and simply went "shopping" for licks from a wide variety of players. So no complete solos, but a specific harmonic goal in mind and a gap that I really felt the need to fill. It's the language that you're after, and the mission is to acquire it and then blend it in a personal manner. Hope this helps?

- Mark
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

I transcribe on a regular basis. Sometimes my subject matter is a short phrase or a couple of bars that I can't seem to lift from just listening. Most of the time, though, I select an entire solo that features elements that appeal to me. The individual licks are interesting in themselves, but as Mark said, it's how they are incorporated into the rest of the piece that matters. How did the player set up the approach to this one phrase, and how did it connect to the next one? How did the player develop the theme, ala classical composers?
Learning licks alone is akin to memorizing a sentence from a story without reading what preceded and followed. Then again, there's a huge market for one liners Smile
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

I transcribe almost every day. The length of music that I transcribe depends on why I'm transcribing it. It also varies depending on whether I'm transcribing guitar, bass or something else.

Lick based music can be transcribed a lick at a time. For example, rock or blues licks often are just short sound bites. Chord progressions repeat, so you can just figure out a short "phrase" / cadence.

For longer solos -- right now, for example, I'm transcribing a Wes solo -- it's best to do a little each day. I find that if I transcribe 4 to 8 bars a day, I can work on a manageable chunk and understand it. Before you know it, you have learned a whole solo.

Sometimes you are transcribing to improve your "feel." So, if I want to learn about the way Robben Ford grooves and puts together phrases, I will learn the entire solo. Then I play along with it until I can cop the groove (at least at a slow speed).

On bass, I often transcribe small chunks. Many popular bass lines are "hook" based -- for example, Jamerson -- and you don't need to learn the whole tune. By learning parts of the tune and get a great lesson from a master.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an idea for integrating your transcribing activities:

For each lick you transcribe, ask yourself, "what do I like about this lick?"

It may be a chromatic passing tone. It may be a bend.

By consciously analyzing in this manner, you create a reference point for things you like and want to incorporate in your playing.
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Here's an idea for integrating your transcribing activities:

For each lick you transcribe, ask yourself, "what do I like about this lick?"

It may be a chromatic passing tone. It may be a bend.

By consciously analyzing in this manner, you create a reference point for things you like and want to incorporate in your playing.


Excellent point, Lenny. Another question to as about a line or solo is "I like it, but how come I can't figure out why?" For example, Miles' solos have this distinct style and quality to them that I couldn't describe or figure out. It was only after transcribing a number of his solos that I discovered his manner of combining scale wise runs, chromatic lines, and enclosures in addition to his off center phrasing. The techniques are used by all players but Miles used them in his own way.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, Larry. Working out solos from different players and drawing conclusions about their playing is like looking at sculpture from different angles. For example, many players use enclosure tones, but each has a different way of doing it.

There is an interesting comment in "100 Tips for Bass Guitar You Should Have Been Told" (Stuart Clayton), where the author says it's potentially harmful to study only one player, because you are only effective when playing in that artist's style. I'd be interested in hearing what you and Mark think about this concept.
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
There is an interesting comment in "100 Tips for Bass Guitar You Should Have Been Told" (Stuart Clayton), where the author says it's potentially harmful to study only one player, because you are only effective when playing in that artist's style. I'd be interested in hearing what you and Mark think about this concept.


+1 to that. I recently heard a rock player who I thought was really good. After about three songs I realized everything he played was taken directly from the SRV book. Not to mention the Bird clones who shall remain nameless lest we spark controversy. Which leads to another reason to transcribe. Notice in one song such as Bloomdido how Bird's and Dizzy's solos are unique in their own way though they use the same devices. The more influences we can draw from, the more we will grow.
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Studying One Player Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
There is an interesting comment in "100 Tips for Bass Guitar You Should Have Been Told" (Stuart Clayton), where the author says it's potentially harmful to study only one player, because you are only effective when playing in that artist's style. I'd be interested in hearing what you and Mark think about this concept.


Lenny,

It may be potentially harmful, yet there are exceptions to every rule, and the one that springs to mind here is Wes. As I understand, for the first three years of his public performing life Montgomery played Charlie Christian solos note-for-note, ironically because he felt that he couldn't improvise. Not too "harmful" a result, eh? Wink

Naturally you have to take into account what Wes did after his early exposure to CC, because it was the influence of so many non-guitarist pioneers of bebop blended with what he already knew that eventually triggered the most innovative jazz guitarist of his time.

Personally, I believe that it's next to impossible to truly replicate another player, unless you are deliberately attempting to impersonate them by doing covers that include the original recorded solo. Of course, at some point a creative improviser has to make the distinction between elements of language (aka licks/concepts) and a solo learned in its entirety. I see the former as the goal and the latter as a means to an end. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, That's a great point about Wes. thank you.

I also would like to mention that it may be helpful to stay with one mentor for awhile before switching around. Sometimes less is really more.
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Switching Mentors Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
I also would like to mention that it may be helpful to stay with one mentor for awhile before switching around. Sometimes less is really more.


Lenny,

On that note I'll never forget reading an interview conducted between Leonard Feather and both Chick Corea and Herbie Hancock, during their famous world tour many years ago. It centered on transcribing. Corea talked about how obsessive he was in the sixties and how he would spend an entire year studying one personal jazz piano mentor before moving on to the next, and that he would play right along with his heroes. Feather asked him if he meant "note for note" and Chick replied, "No, I mean until you couldn't tell that there were two instruments being played."

What I remember most from what Herbie shared was how difficult it was for him to get a grip on blues phrasing due to his classical background, and how he had to painstakingly play along with traditional blues pianists until he finally started to make progress. Now who would have thought that?

It was reading such honest stories like those that gave me additional courage to weather the transcribing storm, plus the realization that this doesn't come down to inate talent, but having the right path and the willingness to work hard in doing what's required to achieve your goals.

- Mark
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