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Meaning of the BLUES
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
woodland99...I think I'am starting to understand you a bit more.You have a very strict definition of the word language.


Occupational hazard - used to be rocket scientist Wink
And it is "Woland" - is is name od Satan in great book "Master
and Margarita" - where Satan visits Moscow in 1920s and is posing
as a magician. Satan is actually quite a nice character in that book -
certainly nicer than Soviet apparatchiks.

Dean wrote:
I love you for being true to yourself.You keep us on our toes.


Thanks Dean - I did not mean to. I feel that whole exercise was a bit
of a scholastic nature. But abstract nature of music is something that
is important to me so I keep plowing on.

JT
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woland 99....sorry about the spelling ,no disrespect intended...I'am on meds and shake alittle when I type and write.My spelling is bad anyway.I was one for not writing much,my poor mom had to endure my letters ,there were only a few,but she would worry about me because I would leave her hanging when telling a story about what I was doing.Anyway your just on a different level.Having said that Teaching is a art ,not everyone can do it.Everyone learns different...and a good teacher can adapt to the person not the other way around.
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HJ



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject: Meaning of the Blues Reply with quote

Hi JT,
First of all, that is correct, most us of are not GB or Pat, but do you think they were great players the moment they picked up the guitar? Both of these guys worked very hard to attain the level of excellence they achieved. We all have to start somewhere. Second, it's ok to use whatever you can to aid you in becoming a better player, but why would you think you don't have talent or a great pair of ears? JT, those attributes are developed through hard work and both are within your grasp if you just keep listening and transcribing.

And theory itself is not "evil", nor did I say it was. But, these are the facts; the music was created FIRST, then people who wanted learn it's make up and teach it, analyzed it and created formulas and theories about what they discovered. And this information still couldn't show them how to play the music. The way that theory is taught in classrooms and they way I would teach it to you on your guitar are two separate things. In academia, they teach you the formulas for theory and nothing else. Your statement already lets me know that you're looking at how to apply some theory to things you are learning from transcribing, and this is great for you.


"That is true - however I can listen to Edith Piaf or Kiri-Te-Kanawa doing
Mozart and be equally moved even though I do not speak a word of
French or Iralian. Semantics is only a portion of the story - equally
important is the fact that lyrycist or librettist took time to create set
of words that have inherent melody and rhythm."

JT, you have proved my point. You stated that you can be moved by listening to Edith Piaf or Kiri-Te-Kanawa. Listening to music MOVES people! That's why they go to clubs and concerts to hear musicians play. Keith Jarrett moves you. That's your reward as a listener. I listen to Wes because his music moves me. As a performing musician, that's what I do. How do I accomplish this? By conveying the message of the songs that I play to my audience as a I speak the musical language of jazz to them.

JT, I don't know if you understand how songs are written, but when a lyric is written, there is no music to start with. No "inherent" melody or rhythm is there from the beginning. Any book about songwriting will explain this process to you. Once the lyric is written, a musician will put music to the words based on the story the lyrics conveys. This has been done for over one hundred years, JT. Because you're not aware of it changes nothing.

"And respectfully but I object against idea that we are "supposed" to
convey "feelings" to anybody when doing standards. I love Autumn
Leaves or Black Orpheus but do I always want to play those tunes
as sappy ballads about lost love or lost dreams? Hell no."

Now JT, from your above statement I can only surmise that you are not a working musician. What you're objecting to is what every great musician spend the better part of their lives learning how to do. They know if they don't convey any feelings in their music to move people, they wont have an audience which means they wont be able to work. And just for the record, NOBODY plays Black Orpheus as a ballad because it's a Brazilian style of music called a Samba. If you think ballads are sappy, then you would benefit greatly by transcribing Wes playing "Misty," or George Benson's version of "Willow Weep For Me". Some of the greatest solo masterpieces in jazz are ballads, and they are the most difficult to play.

"However music is NOT a language."

Dude, I don't know what it is that has you hung about music being a language, but when the creators of a genre of music tell me that their music is a language, and then they teach me how to speak it, I know this to be an absolute truth. And further more, this has been an absolute truth way before you or I were born. You can disagree with it all you want, but that's not going to change the facts of what all jazz musicians know to be true about the music they play for a living. JT, I have been transcribing for 40 years and this why I KNOW that it's a language. I have also studied the history of jazz and it's exponents. The more time you spend listening and transcribing, the more the language will reveal itself to you. The bottom line is, if Dizzy Gillespie tells and shows me jazz is a language, and you tell me that it is not a language, who am I going to believe?

"I listen to Keith Jarret and travel half a way across Galaxy - and
that is precisely because there is nothing verbal, tangible or definite
about what he says - it does not tie you down to any particular image."

JT, this is same thing that YOU should aim for when someone listens to you play. On another note, Keith Jarrett's music is very much verbal and definite. You can't listen to him without hearing him verbalize every note. And when he plays "Whisper Not", it is not abstract and free as you suggest. This musical form is very definite and Keith performs it that way.

The Blues is the most definite and non-abstract of all forms. And last, lets get back on point here; the meaning of the blues is about the FEELING. If you don't feel it, you don't get it. Since this music is a cultural part of my ethnic background, you'll just have to trust me on this one, JT. Peace.

Henry Johnson
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry,I wish I could speak the language in writing as well as you and others on this forum do.....dead on ,right on all points....Feeling the blues to me is all about the life you lived and are living.I'll just say I did more before I was 21 then most prople do in a life time.I'am the guy that had to carry his snare drum to school band in a box instead of a case.You get the picture.I still stand on MUSIC IS A LANGUAGE.I will be getting one of your cd's today so I can hear you speak to me .( new beginnings )
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
I still stand on MUSIC IS A LANGUAGE. I will be getting one of your cd's today so I can hear you speak to me. (new beginnings)


Dean,

With you 100% and man, you will LOVE that CD! I dig all of HJ's recordings but I must have listened to "New Beginnings" every day for a month after I first heard it. Smile

I would also encourage you and anyone else who hasn't read his recent cover story interview ("Henry Johnson - Cruising with the Legends") in the Feb '07 issue of Just Jazz Guitar Magazine to pick up a copy. You can order a single copy direct from their website at: http://www.justjazzguitar.com

The story chronicles the twenty-two years he spent performing with and meeting the legends of the genre via the jazz cruise ship gigs. Priceless insights. He makes you feel as though you were right there listening to these amazing conversations. I may be biased, but I believe that anyone who's read it will agree that it's one of the best interviews ever in JJG.

And finally, regardless of the original intention of this thread, I would like nothing better than to discuss my favorite subject: The Meaning of Blues (in jazz and other genres). All for now...

- Mark
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BarbNY



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 29
Location: NY

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


I dig all of HJ's recordings but I must have listened to "New Beginnings" every day for a month after I first heard it. Smile

And finally, regardless of the original intention of this thread, I would like nothing better than to discuss my favorite subject: The Meaning of Blues (in jazz and other genres). All for now...

- Mark


Mark,

Let me add Henry's "Evening at Sea" as another special favorite. Each time I listen to it, it seems I learn something else. A real treasure. Add to that the generous amount of time Henry has spent posting on this site. His words are gold in my book.

There's been a lot of talk about the importance of blues in all genres of music. Since it seems that students often define blues in different ways, I was wondering if you'd clarify what you mean when you suggest students "play some form of the blues every day," even if the student is not a traditional blues player?
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BarbNY wrote:
There's been a lot of talk about the importance of blues in all genres of music. Since it seems that students often define blues in different ways, I was wondering if you'd clarify what you mean when you suggest students "play some form of the blues every day," even if the student is not a traditional blues player?


Barbara,

To me, the most important thing in playing or composing is to emotionally express yourself in a way that any listener can relate to, regardless of genre. The soulfulness that emanates from the blues language hits the average listener right in the heart, even if it's not in the traditional blues format.

To be an accomplished and competent blues player requires dedication and a true love for it, as it did for all of my jazz mentors, like Oscar Peterson, George Benson, Kenny Burrell, etc. They play the blues every single day because it is food for the soul, and it clearly shows in the way that they improvise and the obvious feeling in their music, whether they're playing 12-bar blues, bebop, a classic vocal standard, or anything else.

Blues historically lies at the very foundation of jazz. Removing or ignoring it is like taking the essential heart and soul out of the music. Even though most recognize its importance, it's amazing to me how many players take it for granted and only pay it lip service. The simple solution is to play it every day like those great artists mentioned above, and to strive for conviction to the degree where you can move a listener in as little as one note. That skill transcends the genre, so no matter what style you play or how you blend your influences, the bottom line becomes the "soul factor."

- Mark
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barbara, I would like to give my meaning of the blues to you also.Blues =beer ,moonshine,shady women,dirt floors,hot,loud,slick men,Sunday your only day off,dirty danceing,My baby is a super star and done got old,pointing and laughing.Jazz=low lights ,dressed to the 9's,wine and fine wiskey,cigars,low talk,set close touch lightly,get to know each other, or think man what a good life we have.Blues is ruff,hits the gut and heart,jazz is refined and hits the mind and heart.kind of put blues in a blinder and refine it and you have jazz.Also thanks for the tip on ( Evening at sea ) I will pick it up.I wish there were more ladies such as yourself on this forum.Player wise Carol Kayn and Muriel Anderson are two of the tops that come to mind.Just great players and so nice in person........Mark for me I think you have to start with Blues just to even think of trying jazz,to me jazz is faster more chord changes and runs,a lot more words sort of speak.IMO
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Meaning of the Blues Reply with quote

HJ wrote:
Hi JT,
First of all, that is correct, most us of are not GB or Pat, but do you think they were great players the moment they picked up the guitar?


Dunno - certain people are just born with better ear-hand coordination.
Some people have perfect pitch but most of us don't. Some folks have
long spider like fingers (like eg. Eric Johnson) but there are few folks
that play successful guitar with short stubby fingers (Danny Gatton or
Jimmy Bruno). I agree that some abilities can be developed but being
Pat M, George B or Pat M2 is not just a question of hard work. But I
do not complain - trying to get there is fun enough.
[/quote]

HJ wrote:

And theory itself is not "evil", nor did I say it was. But, these are the facts; the music was created FIRST, then people who wanted learn it's make up and teach it, analyzed it and created formulas and theories about what they discovered. And this information still couldn't show them how to play the music.


All analogies are inherently false but I thought for a moment about doing
mathematics. People discovered Ptyhogorean Theorem when building
pyramids - yet it is being taught as dry theorem about triangles - nobody
sends students of mathematics to desert and asks them to build a huge
stone monument in order to better understand that theorem. Theory
makes it possible to distilled knowledge and communicate it. It won't
teach people how to play but it helps to organize and classify knowledge.
If you have musical memory like George and have every Grant Green
solo memorized note for note then maybe you do not need theory.
I have problem memorizing even two page chord melody arrangement
so for me eschewing theory is simply not an option.

HJ wrote:

JT, I don't know if you understand how songs are written, but when a lyric is written, there is no music to start with. No "inherent" melody or rhythm is there from the beginning.


Yes there is. All words have rhythm and melody. And all good lyricist
or poets or - more generally shamans use words that just sound good
when recited - or chanted. That part is common to all humanity - the
ideas of Hindu mantras, Gregorian chant or Brazillain Santeria trance
are manifestation of same thing - how words interract with brain waves
and modify them. All religious are essentially the same - music included -
simply because we all share the same brain structure.

HJ wrote:

And just for the record, NOBODY plays Black Orpheus as a ballad because it's a Brazilian style of music called a Samba. If you think ballads are sappy, then you would benefit greatly by transcribing Wes playing "Misty," or George Benson's version of "Willow Weep For Me". Some of the greatest solo masterpieces in jazz are ballads, and they are the most difficult to play.


Just for the record - I used to play in Brazilian samba drum band and
I love Brazilian music. I used a shortcut referring to samba/bossa/ballad
as "sappy". Nothing wrong with bossa or ballads. And while I usually
think about that amazing 1959 movie "Black Orpheus" every time I
hear that tune I do not think that that it must always be about morning
after carnaval.

HJ wrote:

Dude, I don't know what it is that has you hung about music being a language, but when the creators of a genre of music tell me that their music is a language, and then they teach me how to speak it, I know this to be an absolute truth.
(...)
You can disagree with it all you want, but that's not going to change the facts of what all jazz musicians know to be true about the music they play for a living.
(...)
The bottom line is, if Dizzy Gillespie tells and shows me jazz is a language, and you tell me that it is not a language, who am I going to believe?


I thought we were just exchanging some ideas and trying to establish
what is and what is not a correct thing to believe - I already stated
all my arguments - we do not need to agree 100% on everything in
order to talk.

HJ wrote:

The Blues is the most definite and non-abstract of all forms. And last, lets get back on point here; the meaning of the blues is about the FEELING. If you don't feel it, you don't get it. Since this music is a cultural part of my ethnic background, you'll just have to trust me on this one, JT. Peace.


Feelings are not words. Words are not feelings. Language is words.
If Blues is feeling (which it is - I completely agree) then Blues cannot
be language.
And yes - if you do not feel then you do not get it. NO amount of words
can make anybody get it - blues (and any other music) is in it's core
a NON_VERBAL primal experience given to us by our ancestors that
created it even before they made the word for "fire".

Peace likewise,

JT
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HJ



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:20 pm    Post subject: The Blues Reply with quote

Dear JT,
You are making things so much more complicated than they really are. Even when someone shares with you, information from the "horse's mouth", your belief system blinds you to the facts right in front of you. I have known GB for 33 years. I've been in clubs where he played that had only 5 people in the audience. I know his family, have been to his house, he's been to mine, I have studied with him since I've known him, and he remains a close personal friend. I know how hard he's worked on his playing and why he has that same work ethic today. You're telling me what you THINK about GB and it doesn't seen to matter that you don't even know him or anything about his musical work ethic.

And if in fact we're "trying to establish what is and what is not a correct thing to believe", the belief system that you already have in place is not allowing you move away from what you now believe, to the correct information being shared with you. This is the same belief system that's telling you that lyrics already have a melody and rhythm to them, making it painfully apparent that you are not a songwriter, or you would know without a doubt that this is a false statement. Yet, you continue to argue something that is not correct. This belief system is a weight around your neck that will keep you from seeing the correct information in front of you.

You have also failed to address any of the facts mentioned in my last post to you. Namely, about Dizzy Gillespie, who he is, what he means to jazz, or the fact that I learned about the jazz language historically from him. He himself is a historical fact of jazz, yet you do not acknowledge what he has said, done, and proved. Why would you hold on to belief system that boldly and blindly leads you down a path of misinformation and has no basis in the real world of playing and composing music?

"Feelings are not words. Words are not feelings. Language is words. If Blues is feeling (which it is - I completely agree) then Blues cannot be language. And yes - if you do not feel then you do not get it. NO amount of words can make anybody get it - blues (and any other music) is in it's core a NON_VERBAL primal experience given to us by our ancestors that created it even before they made the word for "fire".

JT, I didn't say that Blues IS a feeling, I said that it was ABOUT, the feeling that one gets. It is clear that you need to start studying some Blues and Jazz history, JT. The incorrect statements you make about the Blues and Jazz shows that you don't about the history behind the music. Words are not feelings, they CONVEY feelings. If I say that I'm "sick" to someone, if they speak my language, they immediately know that I don't FEEL well because they can relate a feeling to the word, "sick". JT, this is a BASIC example of language, and it's how we communicate. If I go to Japan and sit in with musicians who don't SPEAK English, and I start to play "Oleo", they immediately join in because they know the musical language of JAZZ. The Blues was created in cotton fields by slaves on these plantations in the south. They had no instruments, just their voices. This music came out of the painful experience of slavery. This are MY ancestors, JT.

JT, you can study all the theory you want if that makes you happy. But while you're doing that, make sure that you transcribe a jazz solo every week. When I say transcribe, I mean that you get your guitar, sit in front of the computer with the program on it, and learn to play that solo note for note with no mistakes. And, you need to scat this solo while, learning it. If you do this, by the end of the year, you'll have 52 complete solos in your mental musical library that you can reference from, and yes, even be able to scat like GB. Don't allow your faulty belief system to tell you that this is not an option for you, because it really is. You just have open your mind. I believe in YOU JT, not you faulty belief system. Change it, and you will experience the difference it can make.

Take care,
Henry
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: The blues Reply with quote

HJ;

thank you for your posts, you have a great deal of knowledge and thank you for sharing it with us. i have learned several things from your responses.

thanks
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Todd
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Brad Kinder



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got nothing to add but Wow..what a great thread! Mark and HJ those are some of the wisest words I've ever come across on an internet forum. The net is a wasteland of discussions on theory, scales and musical formulas that just bore me to tears but you guys really speak the gospel truth IMO. I wish I had access to stuff like this when I was starting out because these are things that took me years to realize. I really hope some kids just starting get exposed to these ideas and take it to heart. I know I would have rather walked the same path that the greats walked instead of having to take the long road through the academia wasteland. Thumbs Up!
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John G



Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: The Blues Reply with quote

HJ wrote:

JT, you can study all the theory you want if that makes you happy. But while you're doing that, make sure that you transcribe a jazz solo every week. When I say transcribe, I mean that you get your guitar, sit in front of the computer with the program on it, and learn to play that solo note for note with no mistakes. And, you need to scat this solo while, learning it. If you do this, by the end of the year, you'll have 52 complete solos in your mental musical library that you can reference from, and yes, even be able to scat like GB.


I think this sounds like a great idea, and I have actually spent a lot of time transcribing (not with this frequency, but probably one solo a month). However, I find that when I learn and memorize solos that quickly I can play the solo nicely start to finish, but as far as some of the great phrases surfacing in my improv, I am usually disappointed. I get much better results taking one solo and really milking it for all it's worth before moving on to the next one. One solo a week would be a bit overkill for me, though that's just my opinion Smile
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HJ Wrote:
Quote:
First of all, that is correct, most us of are not GB or Pat, but do you think they were great players the moment they picked up the guitar? Both of these guys worked very hard to attain the level of excellence they achieved. We all have to start somewhere. Second, it's ok to use whatever you can to aid you in becoming a better player, but why would you think you don't have talent or a great pair of ears? JT, those attributes are developed through hard work and both are within your grasp if you just keep listening and transcribing.


Thank you so much for saying this. I've heard it before, but it always helps to hear it from a player of your stature. It's so easy to fall into the rut thinking that you don't have the talent, because "practice" requires so much focus on weaknesses (and hopefully turning them into strengths). I may come back to this page and read your post from time to time.

HJ, I'm also glad to see you posting so much on this thread. Your playing sounds so inspired by the blues, and I think that's why I like it so much. I can also see the GB influence (who I also think of as a realy bluesy player). Both of you play with such soul. When's the next album?
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