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HJ



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi nylenny,
I totally get what you're saying. It is very respectful of you to not name names in this forum and forgive me for my temporary loss of judgment in this case. I do understand what you mean about these type of players and their musical content. When Wes or any jazz master plays a song, you can hear the chord changes of the song through their lines regardless of whether playing alone, or accompanied. And this is how it should sound when we play as well if we're supposed to be using the jazz language as our form of expression.

If you can't hear this, chances are there's a lack of jazz language there and speed is being used to try and cover this up. Fortunately, because of the computer and the software we have at our disposal to transcribe with, we can slow things down and see for ourselves what the facts reveal. These are not mere assumptions, but facts right there on the paper in black and white. Hey, if I play Giant Steps for you, you should be able to hear that it's Giant Steps in the harmonic content of my lines.

And for some reason, there's a lack of blues in most of the younger players language out there today. There is no jazz without blues. Without the blues intertwined in the jazz language, the music has no emotional content with which to move anybody. And still, people will sit there scratching their heads THINKING that this is jazz, so it must be great, but FEELING emotionally deprived and will not be returning to hear this music again. This is one of the biggest factors that hurts jazz attendances.

The lack of jazz history among most of the younger players is astounding to me. How can you ever hope to come up with a different way of saying something if you don't know what's already been said? I do understand that to them, Cannonball Adderley is just some dead guy who has a lot of CDs available. But to me, he was a living person who I shared food with, laughed with, and listened to, and learned about life from. If you don't have my experience of him, as a student of jazz, wouldn't you want to know about this icon's life accomplishments? I just don't get it. Thanks to all for listening and sharing.

HJ
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry,

Thank you so much for your response.

It's really interesting that you mentioned the lack of blues language in the vocabulary of some jazz players. I've been studying with Mark for about four years. He started me out with blues, and slowly introduced jazz elements -- like the two five at measure nine, and the use of short two fives in measure four and at the turnaround. It took me a while to figure out what he was doing, but he was using an approach that intimately fuses jazz and blues. I am indebted to him for showing me this approach, because I think I've made faster progress than I could have with any other teacher. Also, he got me transcribing, and I agree with what you say; it's the fastest way to learn.

I love listening to blues influenced players, like GB and yourself. I really can hear the blues language when you play.

One shortcut that Mark taught me is that you can morph the same riff into different styles, just by playing with a slightly different attitude or adding some language from that style to the solo. (To all my fellow students out there, Mark's blues CDs and lessons by mail are amazing and indespensible.)

So I really relate to what you're saying. One think I'm curious about, however, is phrasing. It seems to me that blues-based players phrase better. And they use "space" better. Great examples are Grant, and GB. Do you think this is because of their blues background?

By the way, I have several of your CD's, and you are awesome! Do you think that your ability to sing so well has helped along your guitar playing? What I really enjoy about your playing is that I can hear the past and the future; the Wes/GB influence, and the way you make it uniquely personal and add your own touch to that language. Any plans for an upcoming CD?
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Gorecki
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Glenwood, MD

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HJ wrote:
If you can't hear this, chances are there's a lack of jazz language there and speed is being used to try and cover this up.


Well you just called me out on the carpet! Laughing my buns off! But I know it's true! In past I depended on speed to give me something to say, when I didn't have something to say. Yeah it worked, and yeah people liked it. But it left me in a void, and that void thank goodness brought me here! Wink

Quote:

The lack of jazz history among most of the younger players is astounding to me. How can you ever hope to come up with a different way of saying something if you don't know what's already been said? I do understand that to them, Cannonball Adderley is just some dead guy who has a lot of CDs available. But to me, he was a living person who I shared food with, laughed with, and listened to, and learned about life from. If you don't have my experience of him, as a student of jazz, wouldn't you want to know about this icon's life accomplishments? I just don't get it. Thanks to all for listening and sharing.


I hear you loud and clear! My 'process' in jazz has taken me on huge amounts of discovery of people, who they are/were, what makes/made them 'tick'. I've become fasinated with Oscar Peterson and frankly have fallen in love with the man, not just the player, the man. There are so many others I've just began to touch on but in time I'll absorb who they are/were as well.

But in some cases it isn't pretty. Monk for example is someone who clearly was disturbed in some way and honestly, the more I know about him, the less I want to listen to him. Not that he was a 'bad man' but really needed help or treatment from all I can see.

Oh, and thanks for your wisdom's Henry! There are people in this world I listen to and people I tune out. You I gladly listen to! Peace!
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Scratch



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:08 pm    Post subject: transcribing Reply with quote

Hi,

I am following with great interest what is being said here and I had two questions for those who transcribe. What attitude do you adopt when transcribing? Do you try to work as fast as possible or do you listen the solo you are working on lets say a whole day before writing it down?

Second question: I have experience with transcribing but I would like to know which guitar (or other instrument) player could I benifit most from doing so. I am actually working on Mark's blues lessons (which are great) and I am still at the beginning of learning the blues language, this means I think I should work with solos which aren't too complicated to start with.

Thanks for your commments,

Scratch
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratch,

Congratulations for jumping on the transcribing wagon early in the lesson plan. Regarding your first question: The time it takes to transcribe a solo or head is irrelevant. The goal is to learn how the masters use the language, and if it takes an hour or a month for a particular piece, so be it. I only use the clock to keep from spending all day on it at the expense of practice. If my goal is to practice for six hours on a given day, I might allot two or three hours to transcribing.
I personally don't memorize solos before notating them, only because I have about three memory cells left, and most of the solos I choose are so fast I have to slow them way down to lift the individual tones. So I memorize as much as I can, notate it, and move on. But the value of memorization cannot be overstated. Once you transcribe a chorus and memorize it, you won't believe how it flows as you play while singing it. There are some other benefits to transcribing that arrive with time; listening to a solo at a crawl, you almost feel like you're getting into the player's mind. It may sound hokey, but it's true. You'll become familiar with some of their favorite lines, because you'll hear them on different songs, even over different chord progressions. One thing I noticed while transcribing some of Bird's solos is that he used the blues all over the place. These are things the books can tell you, but you can't really get it unless you pick the masters' works apart.

If you're looking for some solos that sound great but aren't too difficult, I could recommend KB' s Midnight Blue and Wes on The Shouter.

I know I repeated some of what's already been said, but these are my thoughts after having transcribed for a couple of years.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratch said:


Quote:
I am following with great interest what is being said here and I had two questions for those who transcribe. What attitude do you adopt when transcribing? Do you try to work as fast as possible or do you listen the solo you are working on lets say a whole day before writing it down?

Second question: I have experience with transcribing but I would like to know which guitar (or other instrument) player could I benifit most from doing so. I am actually working on Mark's blues lessons (which are great) and I am still at the beginning of learning the blues language, this means I think I should work with solos which aren't too complicated to start with.




I'm really sorry that it's taken me so long to get to this post. Scratch, you ask some great questions. Larry's already given you good suggestions. I think you will find that everyone's point of view is different; however, for what it's worth, here's mine.

At Mark's suggestion, I decided to take up transcribing in earnest a couple of years ago. . At first it was slow, but it has become much easier over time. Remember to transcribe every day. You will be amazed at how quickly you get better.

My transcribing process has evolved. When I first started transcribing, I wrote down everything, and transcribed only a few notes at a time. As my skills progressed, I started taking down longer phrases.

The good thing about my initial effort was that I was doing it. And the important thing with transcription is to JUST DO IT. Even if you make a lot of mistakes, you are making progress. I promise.

Now, I merely play along with a slowed down recording, which I pause from time-to-time. I write nothing down. I just keep playing with the recording, pausing, figuring stuff out, and repeating the process until I have it memorized and can make it sound like the original recording. I only write it down after the fact, and I sometimes don't write it down at all.

I have moved to this type of transcribing because a) it's important to have things memorized, b) I am careful to choose only the best material to transcribe (why waste your time transcribing garbage?) so I really want to learn it, not just write it down, c) my goal is to play, not to document, and d) this method is the most ear intensive, because each iteration requires transcription (whereas, once you write it down, from that point forward, you are reading music). The ear is more important than notation skill.

I am also somewhat unusual in that I started on an orchestral instrument, switched to classical guitar, and then, much later, took up electric. So my reading skills are better than many of my other skills. For this reason, I believe that writing things down would be a crutch for me. It may not be for others, however.

HANDS DOWN, BY FAR, the best thing to start transcribing is Mark's Good Vibes Guitar Solos (GVGS) series. I've transcribed many of them. They are great for transcribing because the soloist is a midi instrument, so you don't get distracted with the nuance of articulation, rhythmic subtleties, etc. It's just you and the note, baby. And that makes it easy to get started. You will have initial success, and that is very important. Mark also provides very accurate transcriptions for the solos, so you can check your work. The material is top-notch, so you will get a lot out of it.

Never transcribe junk -- it's not worth it. I spent a lot of time transcribing TV theme songs, and there really is no place to apply that language (except when I want to joke around and play the Green Acres theme song for people, which I probably do more than I should!).

Also, get yourself a good pair of open-backed headphones. I use Sennheisers. It really helps.


I hope this helps.
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing & Writing Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
I am also somewhat unusual in that I started on an orchestral instrument, switched to classical guitar, and then, much later, took up electric. So my reading skills are better than many of my other skills. For this reason, I believe that writing things down would be a crutch for me. It may not be for others, however.


Len,

Great thoughts all the way around (and thanks for the plug for my jazz solo series Wink ). Yes, you are certainly "somewhat unusual" and the exception to the rule, because most guitarists are terrible readers if they can read/write music at all. Btw, this group includes some of the greatest jazz guitar legends, who religiously learned by imitating their influences strictly by ear. This underlines your current approach and resonates with what I've said many times in the past, which is that you should only attempt to write what you're hearing when it is internalized to the point that you are actually transcribing yourself instead of the source, then just using the latter for verification purposes.

Truth be told, if I was only influenced by guitarists and lacked my classical background, I never would have gotten involved with reading and writing to the degree that I have. However, I grew up around my dad (jazz trombonist) who was constantly writing and arranging, plus my influences span piano, saxophone, trumpet, vibes, etc, most of whom are excellent readers.

So while writing what you hear is an option and if chosen should be taken up after the fact (i.e. learning by ear), there are three critical areas where the notation end has been extremely beneficial for me. First is the reality that in order for me to retain the massive amount of material I've learned by ear over many years, if it wasn't documented I would have lost the majority of it. Second is that phrasing and rhythmic imagination are two of the weakest areas for guitarists, so transcribing improvisers who excel in that dept (e.g. George Benson, Tom Scott, etc, etc) has been heavily responsible for my ever-evolving phrasing ability.

And finally, being an instructor who's approach is based almost totally on the real world language I've transcribed from great players has put me in a position to share my notated discoveries with you and the numerous students I've had the pleasure of coaching for the past 35+ years.

- Mark
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:


Never transcribe junk -- it's not worth it. I spent a lot of time transcribing TV theme songs,
and there really is no place to apply that language (except when I want to joke around and play the
Green Acres theme song for people, which I probably do more than I should!).

Also, get yourself a good pair of open-backed headphones. I use Sennheisers. It really helps.


Lenny,

We had discussion a few months ago in the 'Arranger's Workshop'; 'Who is Arranging What?',
in which I posted the first six bars of a 'TV Theme' guitar arrangement; the "Odd Couple Theme"

http://visionmusic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186


Mark seemed to like it and I think there was some real value in the dialogue.
I also like Mark's "Flintstones" discussion in the thread. The "Flintstones" is also available at the
'Monster Guitar Solos' VM web page;

http://visionmusic.com/monster/guitarsolos.html


The "Odd Couple Theme" was composed by the late Neal Hefti (October 29, 1922 – October 11, 2008),
American jazz trumpeter, composer, tune writer, and arranger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Hefti


Nice lyric content too;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syt8qQUbzVc

I recently heard a wonderful arrangement/performance of
"Take Me Out to the Ball Game" by the The Ray Brown Trio.
Talk about a "basic tune" from which to start.


I must say I'm partial to Audio-Technica ATH-M50 Closed Studio Headphones.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ATHM50/reviews/#anchor

http://www.roaddogonline.com/audio-technica-ath-m50-professional-studio-headphones.html


(The ATH-40's);
http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-ATHM40FS-Precision-StudioPhones/dp/B0002D03ZW


-Kb

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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi KB,

I get your drift.

What I was trying to say is that it is important to transcribe things that are meaningful to yourself. To take one of Mark's sayings and put it in a different context, never transcribe something you wouldn't perform.

I was using the TV themes as a metaphor. I've played the MASH theme song on classical guitar, and the I Dream of Jeannie in a band. It was just a poor attempt at humor on my part. If you like TV theme songs and would perform them for others, knock yourself out.

On the open versus closed headphones: I strongly prefer open-back headphones because you can hear external sounds. So you can listen to the source in the headphones and still hear what you are playing on guitar. When you wear closed-back headphones, you can't hear the guitar. I also have a pair of closed headphones, but I have to only listen in one ear (with the other ear cup balanced on my head) when I transcribe.

Open-backed headphones get you closer to the sound when transcribing, yet still allow you to hear what you are playing. I am not saying they are better in general, but they are clearly superior for transcribing (because you can listen to the source with both ears). I beleive that anyone spending an hour or more a day transcribing would prefer open backed phones.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more point (sorry to do this in installments): Never buy noise-cancelling headphones for transcribing.

Also, I listen to speakers from time-to-time (when I'm lazy). But, for the money, there is nothing like a pair of headphones to get ultimate transcription clarity.
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:


On the open versus closed headphones: I strongly prefer open-back headphones because you can hear external sounds. So you can listen to the source in the headphones and still hear what you are playing on guitar. When you wear closed-back headphones, you can't hear the guitar. I also have a pair of closed headphones, but I have to only listen in one ear (with the other ear cup balanced on my head) when I transcribe.

Open-backed headphones get you closer to the sound when transcribing, yet still allow you to hear what you are playing. I am not saying they are better in general, but they are clearly superior for transcribing (because you can listen to the source with both ears). I beleive that anyone spending an hour or more a day transcribing would prefer open backed phones.


Lenny,

I very much like my ATH-M50s because they do provide a reasonable degree of
isolation, they're comfortable, and they sound great. Certainly what I want for recording
in my home project studio.

In a transcribing setup, I can use a small mixer with guitar in one channel
and the audio out from the computer (for audio file playback of the source I want to
hear for transcribing) in another couple of channels. Set audio level balance on each channel, apply a
little eq and good to go. Very flexible, easy to adjust levels/balance. I don't need to listen to the guitar
with one ear phone piece removed.

There are any number of variations on this basic setup principle to adapt for different applications.

If the Sennhiesers work for you, and most important, you're achieving your intended goals
and objectives; then, as you say, knock yourself out.

But, as it goes, often I just listen through the speakers too.

-Kb

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