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Positions and Fingerings for Transcription

 
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject: Positions and Fingerings for Transcription Reply with quote

As I have progressed as a transcriber, I pay less attention to fingerings and positions when transcribing. I simply try to get the notes and inflections.

After I have played along with the recording many times, I devise fingerings that work on-the-fly and will be easy to remember.

This contrasts my prior procedure. I used to try to figure out what position in which the performer was playing (by tone, use of slides, hammers, etc). I couldn't always get it, but I would make an effort.

The reason I changed my method is because I want to use the language. The original positions do not always facilitate memorization, transposition, etc. This is especially true of licks that use open strings or span multiple positions.

I'm curious how others approach this issue.
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Positions and Fingerings for Transcription Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
The reason I changed my method is because I want to use the language. The original positions do not always facilitate memorization, transposition, etc. This is especially true of licks that use open strings or span multiple positions.


Len,

Good point regarding the language itself trumping guitar-specific fingerings and positions. It resonates with me, since so much of what I play comes from non-guitarists in the first place. That leaves the creative decisions as to how and where to execute a particular phrase up to the player.

Of course, it kind of depends what your purpose happens to be. For someone like Wolf (Marshall) and his series of guitar books, where Wes, GB, Pass and others played a particular phrase (position, string set, etc) is a critical component of what he's trying to convey.

Since blending the language is the #1 thing for me, I may observe where someone like Wes or Benson played something, but I end up moving licks into all playing positions anyway as a means of exploring the fingerboard and making personal discoveries. All for now...

- Mark
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the benefits I have found in transcribing horn pieces is that it forces me to think outside of the usual patterns that we guitarists settle into. It took a long time but now as I transcribe the most efficient fingerings seem to just "happen" without too much experimentation.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn Licks Reply with quote

Larry_DC wrote:
One of the benefits I have found in transcribing horn pieces is that it forces me to think outside of the usual patterns that we guitarists settle into. It took a long time but now as I transcribe the most efficient fingerings seem to just "happen" without too much experimentation.


Larry,

VERY true. As an example, whenever I translate R&B sax licks to guitar and try to match the feel and phrasing, more often than not it's in a less popular playing position (e.g. key of C, 5th position as opposed to 8th position). Even when it comes to basic pentatonic "just add water" scale sequences done on sax, the slurring often requires rapid shifting between neighboring positions to effectively get the job done.

Guitar players who don't transcribe horn players and make these important discoveries end up stuck using the same old tried and true guitaristic clichés that everyone has beaten to death. Nothing wrong with that, mind you Wink. It's just that there's SO much more out there if you get beyond the instrument itself. The blues stuff I've adapted to guitar from the likes of King Curtis, Junior Walker, Tom Scott, etc, are licks and concepts that I hear very few guitarists playing, for obvious reasons.

Some of you have already heard these tracks, but for others interested in actually hearing what I'm talking about, check out a few of my groove-oriented guitar solos scheduled for future release at the new MGS Previews page. You'll hear plenty of saxophone ideas translated to guitar, in addition to traditional influences from Benson, B.B. King, Kenny Burrell, and many others. For me, the real "fun" is blending it all together.

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark and Larry, Who are the most-often transcribed horn players in jazz?
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, dumb question. That would be Trane, Bird, Miles, Dexter Gordon, etc.

What solos are considered some of the greatest horn solos for transcribing (contain excellent language)?
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Horn Solos Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Sorry, dumb question. That would be Trane, Bird, Miles, Dexter Gordon, etc.

What solos are considered some of the greatest horn solos for transcribing (contain excellent language)?


Len,

Personal call, but I would add Clark Terry (trumpet) to the list, mainly because I LOVE the dynamic blues power he brings to a jazz solo. One of my all-time favorite recordings is "Oscar Peterson Trio Plus One" (with Clark on Verve). Highly recommended.

Wolf's been transcribing a lot of Dexter as of late, for the very language reason that you cite. Of the group, no question in my mind that a Miles trumpet solo really lays out well on guitar. I may have shared this before, but here's a 20+ year old synth interpretation of his famous "Freddie Freeloader" 6-chorus solo from the epic "Kind of Blue" release, using a Casio PG380 guitar with a club organ bass patch from a Yamaha DX100 (mini keyboard) and a Yamaha RX11 drum machine. Totally bare bones and more uptempo than it should have been, but you can probably tell how his horn nuances were creeping into my playing as a result of transcribing his solo and playing along with him daily.

I know that you and Larry are both familiar with my "If Wes Did Miles" tribute composition, which combines the first chorus of that Miles' solo with Wes-style octaves and chord punches. Part of the Swing Blues: Doorway to Jazz wing of the lesson series and also published in Just Jazz Guitar magazine several years ago. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very cool. Yes, I'm certainly familiar with Wes Does Miles. I play it along with the Miles recording from time to time. It's one of many great lessons from that series.

Kind of Blue, BTW, has a lot of great language on it.
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Larry_DC



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Mark and Larry, Who are the most-often transcribed horn players in jazz?


That is a tough call. So far I haven't really centered on particular artist. I just happen to be listening to a solo and something about it makes me want to transcribe it. Of course it usually ends up being by one of the masters since they are the ones we tend to list to the most. Expanding on Mark's point, I find Miles' solos especially intriguing for their melody and distinctive style. It's as if he was singing instead of playing. And so far they have all been especially adaptable to guitar. I recently finished his and Sonny Rollins' first two choruses from "Paper Moon." When will I ever be able to come up with ideas like that? Maybe in my next life.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When will I ever be able to come up with ideas like that? Maybe in my next life.


LOL. I know exactly what you mean. It's like you are watching a perfectly executed game of chess. Every move makes sense -- in restrospect. Inventing it is a different story!

I too am completely humbled through transcribing.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Humility Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
I too am completely humbled through transcribing.


Len,

Welcome to the club. Wink Learning by ear, whether you write what you hear or not, is a humbling experience by its very nature, as is music in general. But when you stop to reflect on history, it was also that way for Bird, Wes, and others who realized that the only way to acquire the language was by imitating their mentors.

It's easy to forget the fact that Parker was a poor soloist until he learned Coleman Hawkins and Lester Young solos, or that Wes couldn't improvise at all and played Christian solos note-for-note. Those kinds of realizations made a big impression on yours truly early on, because that was during a time period when I was not only humbled but didn't feel that I even had the ability to play jazz. I figured if it was tough for some of the greatest icons, then I could surely muster the courage to do likewise and just see what would happen. It's not about talent. It's all about the path and having a willingness to work combined with a deep respect for the art itself. The best players have that combination, as history has proven over and over again.

Btw, I agree with Larry regarding Miles. Not only does his work translate nicely to guitar, but the inference in phrasing and his use of space while retaining high intensity is something that I've always admired in any musician, jazz or otherwise.

- Mark
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