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Wes Montgomery

 
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject: Wes Montgomery Reply with quote

Wes Montgomery is generally considered the "Father of Bebop Guitar," and his impact on fellow jazz guitarists (myself included) is unparalleled. For me, it hasn't been this or that Wes lick per se, but his innovative, thumb-based approach to playing the guitar and composing, using octaves and chords to create call & response phrasing while bringing out the unique percussiveness of the instrument.

I have plenty to share in the way of thoughts about the man, his famous recordings, my Wes-influenced original songs, solos, and lesson material relevant to upper string chord solos, the aforementioned octave playing and right-hand thumb work, and much more.

Speaking of sharing and to get things rolling, last year I recorded a version of Montgomery's classic Road Song composition, to me the epitome of a head that mixes octaves with chord responses. I intend to transcribe my solo for the MGS series. Hope you enjoy it!

- Mark
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, Love it man! You are awesome!!

Thanks for sharing.

Don MacArthur
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Urs Helfenstein



Joined: 15 May 2008
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Location: Lucerne, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,
I love Wes Montgomerys work very much and I agree that he was one of the most influential guitar players ever. But one thing I don’t understand is why he should be called “Father of Bebop Guitar”. There were others before him who played a great Bebop Guitar: Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney for example had already transmitted the Bebop-language to the guitar in the mid-fifties. To me, those players are the fathers of Bebop Guitar. And even more: It’s my opinion, that Wes is not a Bebop guitarist, he’s much more a Hardbop guitarist.
How do you think about that?
Urs
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Mark
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Father of Bebop Guitar Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
I love Wes Montgomerys work very much and I agree that he was one of the most influential guitar players ever. But one thing I don’t understand is why he should be called “Father of Bebop Guitar”. There were others before him who played a great Bebop Guitar: Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney for example had already transmitted the Bebop-language to the guitar in the mid-fifties. To me, those players are the fathers of Bebop Guitar. And even more: It’s my opinion, that Wes is not a Bebop guitarist, he’s much more a Hardbop guitarist. How do you think about that?


Urs,

The "Bebop" vs "Hardbop" label is somewhat of a moot point. With all due respect to those players, historically Wes not only transmitted the core language to the guitar but also elevated the status of the instrument in a totally innovative manner, which is why almost all historians see the jazz guitar lineage as Christian to Montgomery, and beyond. Farlow, Raney, and others never came close to that level of accomplishment and influence on their peers and future jazz guitarists, although they were superb players. They also lacked the deep, undying respect for the blues associated with the Montgomery lineage, and for me and many others that element looms huge when it comes to the foundation of jazz itself.

As a result, you almost never hear a player referred to as a "Disciple of the Tal Farlow or Jimmy Raney School of Jazz Guitar," but Wes has had such a powerful influence on so many great players who followed him that you hear that reference all of the time. It's that level of historical impact that caused the "Father of Bebop Guitar" association with Wes, something that virtuoso jazz guitarists like George Benson or Henry Johnson have said many times in the past.

For me and so many others, Wes broke the mold when it comes to bebop guitar, and when you add to the mix his brilliant compositions and unique use of call & response octaves and chords, well... I just don't think anyone else in that era comes close.

Don wrote:
Mark, Love it man! You are awesome!! Thanks for sharing.


Glad you enjoyed it, Don. Thanks for the kind words!

- Mark
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Don MacArthur



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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

In regards to Wes and blues and other Jazzer's lack of it, I couldn't agree with you more.

Don
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Mark
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Blues in Jazz Reply with quote

Don MacArthur wrote:
In regards to Wes and blues and other Jazzer's lack of it, I couldn't agree with you more.


Don,

One of my students emailed me yesterday, inquiring about something he heard and saw on an Emily Remler performance of Sonny Rollins' "Tenor Madness" at YouTube. When I checked it out (and transcribed some of it), I was once again struck by her command of the blues and Montgomery's unmistakable influence on her. Hard swing and a great mix of bebop and blues language, but done within the Wes concept of call & response, using chords and octaves liberally throughout.

Blues in jazz may be a subjective issue, but truthfully the great percentage of jazz guitarists I hear (even those who are historically revered) just pay "lip service" at best when it comes to a pure love for the blues. Therefore they come up way short for me, and no matter what their level of technical prowess or how "hip" their jazz lines may be, I rarely will listen to their recordings more than once or twice.

The reality that I never get tired of listening to Oscar, Wes, Benson, Burrell, and others cut from that cloth is an ongoing and stark reminder of the very reason I got into jazz in the first place. While I can applaud anyone's jazz guitar creativity and recognize their place in history, there's only one player in the bebop tradition who put it ALL together in such a timeless, influential way. Thanks, Wes!

- Mark
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw Emily on youtube with her version of Tenor Madness a few a months ago. I agree with your conclusion Mark. I also agree that jazz with no blues tossed in does sound stale. Some people may think it sounds good but I'm not impressed with how many notes one can play but how they play them. I don't like to listen to players that just play a bunch a notes real fast (I won't name any but you know who I'm talking about). To me it sounds like someone who just talks to much and never gets their point across. The sound they make is just a bunch of white noise or interference tossed into the air. What do we call this sound that we are after, i.e. mostly blues and a little jazz? Jazzed Blues? Bluesed Jazz? etc.

Don
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Mark
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: When Blues Meets Jazz Reply with quote

Don MacArthur wrote:
What do we call this sound that we are after, i.e. mostly blues and a little jazz? Jazzed Blues? Bluesed Jazz?


Don,

Lately I've been calling it "Blusion" (since I like to fuse the blues with everything I play Wink ).

Back on topic for anyone listening, how about favorite Wes recordings, videos, etc? Obviously, "Smokin' At the Half Note" is one of his most famous and memorable releases.

- Mark
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Don MacArthur



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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naptown Blues, Sundown & West Coast Blues are among my favorites.

Don
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Mark
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:53 am    Post subject: "Thumbprints" Reply with quote

Don MacArthur wrote:
Naptown Blues, Sundown & West Coast Blues are among my favorites.


Don,

Great tunes, but there are so many other memorable Wes originals, like Four On Six, Full House, Road Song, The Thumb, etc, etc. As a fairly prolific writer myself, I am truly impressed by any jazz guitarist who can actually compose a tune that other jazz musicians love to play. I see and hear lots of great players, but when it comes to good writers the ranks thin out really fast. That's another HUGE plus for what Montgomery brought to the table.

Btw (and related directly to Wes), several months ago I started to make a concerted effort to put the pick down and challenge myself to improvise using the right-hand thumb exclusively. It's been an inspiring time period, as the effort to convert core jazz/blues language forced me to completely re-think my left-hand approach, all in a quest to understand more of what Montgomery was doing. The resulting breakthroughs have changed my playing to the degree that it's also had a positive effect when I'm using the pick, because my left-hand has a sense of freedom that wasn't there before.

Anyway, I've been documenting the discoveries in my new "Thumbprints" lesson series, and I'll try to get some audio and notational clips posted in the forum beore too long. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit, there are two things that confuse me in this thread.

It is true that Wes can be considered a "hard bop" player. But, to be frank, I like my jazz fused with R&B, blues or whatever musicologists have deemed to consitute hard bop! (It's just a label.)

Bebop versus hard bop -- I'll take the hard bop any day, thank you.

While I am in awe of traditional bop players, they don't inspire me to transcribe their works.

And, as Mark mentioned, while we all recognize Tal, Jimmy et al as amazing virtuosos, few pros are in direct lineage. Many follow Wes.

The other thing I take exception to is the concept that Wes' greatest skills are his octave playing, chord soloing, and composing. IMHO, Wes was a master of phrasing and jazz language as well. Listen to Four on Six (Incredible Guitar Artistry) or West Coast Blues. Wes has total command of the language and single line playing. His soloing may be a little simple harmonically, but it is melodic and thematic. It is also eminently "stealable." Wes also was a great technician -- just try to play along with him at anything approaching tempo.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: Montgomery's Greatest "Skill?" Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
The other thing I take exception to is the concept that Wes' greatest skills are his octave playing, chord soloing, and composing. IMHO, Wes was a master of phrasing and jazz language as well.


Len,

No question that Wes was a brilliant, creative improviser in his own right. However, I would refer to the elements you cite more as his greatest "contributions" to jazz guitar itself (as opposed to "skills"). Even though others had used octaves and chord solos before him, the way he wove them into his work as a soloist and composer was unprecedented.

I only make this personal distinction because Wes is a huge influence on me, but not as a single-line soloist per se. I mean, I've learned and played many of his solos along the way, but what I always imagined was combining his textural approach with what I gleaned from Oscar Peterson and others like him to achieve my ultimate jazz goal. Still trying... Wink

- Mark
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark said:

Quote:
I would refer to the elements you cite more as his greatest "contributions" to jazz guitar itself (as opposed to "skills")


Thanks Mark. That is a great post, and it captures Wes' place in the lineage -- he was not only a monster player and composer, but also an innovator -- a catalyst in the evolution of jazz guitar.
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