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Wes' Thumb
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject: Wes' Thumb Reply with quote

Can someone explain the precise technique Wes used to get his tone on octaves? I know he strummed them (mostly downstroke) with the side of his thumb. But did he strike the string at the knuckle joint or with the meaty part of the thumb? How hard did he strike the strings? Did he originate the motion from his elbow or wrist? What sort of an angle was his forearm to the guitar when he hit the strings? thanks.
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Wes' Thumb Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Can someone explain the precise technique Wes used to get his tone on octaves? I know he strummed them (mostly downstroke) with the side of his thumb. But did he strike the string at the knuckle joint or with the meaty part of the thumb? How hard did he strike the strings? Did he originate the motion from his elbow or wrist? What sort of an angle was his forearm to the guitar when he hit the strings? thanks.


What puzzles me more is his apparent ability to do upstroke with
his thumb - that is entirely impossible for me - short thumb that
does not bend backward at all - none of my gingers do. Serious
handicap when it comes to playing guitar. Plus very wide fingernails
which makes any upstroke with thumb impossible. I still like to play
fingerstyle quite a bit - but using more of a classical - 4 finger technique.
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Wes' Thumb Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Can someone explain the precise technique Wes used to get his tone on octaves? I know he strummed them (mostly downstroke) with the side of his thumb. But did he strike the string at the knuckle joint or with the meaty part of the thumb? How hard did he strike the strings? Did he originate the motion from his elbow or wrist? What sort of an angle was his forearm to the guitar when he hit the strings? thanks.


Len,

One of my favorite subjects, because I've been doing thumbed octaves in the Wes tradition for as long as I can remember. When my wife and I were doing our jazz duo in the SF Bay Area many years ago, I must have been using octaves for at least 75% of the heads to get a big fat sound on my Gibson archtop (against Janice's nylon-string accompaniment).

Okay, from what my ear tells me and what I've been able to gather from watching past videos of Wes, it was side of the thumb slightly in front of the knuckle and motion generated from the wrist. I don't claim to be the ultimate authority, so I'm also measuring the overall sound that I get in comparison via personal recordings. Even though I'm sure you've heard this one, the rendition I did of Monk's Round Midnight last year pretty much sums up what I'm going after in the way of tone and attack, in both head interpretation and soloing. Note the abundance of slides/slurs.

P.S. to JT...

I used to think that Wes did upstrokes with his thumb, but in reality he only reserved that approach for chords and octave effects. His single-line solos were all downstroked. The secret lies in the left-hand shifts and slurring, not in the right-hand. Thanks to Henry Johnson's encouragement, I've made more progress on that front this year than I have in the past twenty years, so I am totally convinced of what's required to improvise effectively with the thumb, regardless of tempo. All for now...

- Mark
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memorary



Joined: 20 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since my thumbs are roughly half the size of those of Wes Montgomery`s or George Benson`s, I can hardly give any serious suggestions Wink. However, not long ago, I had a chance to check out a John Abercrombie concert. He plays exclusively with his thumb and what he does is very impressive, plus he has a more or less standard thumb Smile , so maybe even I have some hope Very Happy
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

Quote:
it was side of the thumb slightly in front of the knuckle and motion generated from the wrist


Thanks Mark. That is very helpful. How hard was his attack (force) for octaves, chords and single notes (in other words, how much volume is produced by the thumb vis-a-vis the amp)?
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Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Thanks Mark. That is very helpful. How hard was his attack (force) for octaves, chords and single notes (in other words, how much volume is produced by the thumb vis-a-vis the amp)?


Len,

You're welcome. Again, I'm really not the ultimate authority on Wes, but from what I understand he used to practice in a quiet environment, so I'm guessing light volume and little (if any) amplification. For the record, I practice 99% of the time unamplified, as does Henry Johnson. I only amplify the signal when performing or recording. I prefer to control the dynamics with just the guitar and my touch. Works for me. Wink All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. I read somewhere that Wes developed his thumb technique while trying to play softly and not bother his neighbors. So that makes sense.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Thumb vs Pick Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Interesting. I read somewhere that Wes developed his thumb technique while trying to play softly and not bother his neighbors. So that makes sense.


Len,

I remember reading that, too. Also that Wes had a difficult time using the pick and therefore opted for the thumb instead. As I mentioned in my P.S. to JT, the secret to Wes' skill in using the thumb for single-line solos is not the thumb itself or whether he's using his wrist vs forearm, angles, etc. It finally dawned on me from jamming with Henry and watching him play in the Wes tradition that it's all about the left-hand and the use of slurs and shifting. You can clearly see that from watching the old videos of Wes in action, but seeing and hearing it right in front of my face with HJ really underlined the reality for me, and it gave me a game plan for making progress with something I had given up on years ago.

That was in January of this year. When I returned from SoCal I decided to devote 10-15 minutes each day to experimenting with the language that I already knew, but finding new ways to finger the passages, using slides and slurs to facilitate the use of the thumb with all downstrokes. I started making breakthroughs within a couple of weeks and then began recording some solos and a few originals to hear the growth.

To hear one example of my progress, click here. What you're hearing is a one-chorus, 32-bar AABA thumb solo over Rhythm Changes in Bb, and uptempo at about 270 bpm. That's when I realized that this could indeed be done, and it almost sounds as though I'm using a pick when I hear it back. However, it does involve the kind of left-hand approach and philosophy that Wes had to use in order to improvise effectively with his thumb. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark. That is very helpful.

Wes typically played a group of choruses single line; then, a group as octaves; finally, a chord solo. Wes used his thumb throughout.

When I play with my thumb, I get a lower volume than with my pick. When switching to an octave solo -- as Wes did when he played his middle solo choruses -- how do you control the volume between the first set of choruses and the second?
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:01 am    Post subject: Thumb Thoughts... Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Wes typically played a group of choruses single line; then, a group as octaves; finally, a chord solo. Wes used his thumb throughout.

When I play with my thumb, I get a lower volume than with my pick. When switching to an octave solo -- as Wes did when he played his middle solo choruses -- how do you control the volume between the first set of choruses and the second?


Len,

Great point about Wes, and his famous "West Coast Blues" is one perfect example of what you describe. Nine choruses, beginning with single line, then octaves, then block chords. To me the beauty of that approach is that instead of gravitating towards more density and speed in building a climax, he used the percussive nature of the guitar and got stronger dynamics as the density declined (less is more). Since the guitar by its nature lacks the bigger sound of a horn as a single-line jazz instrument, Wes got the FAT sound plus the dynamics I just described.

That approach and Wes' penchant for call & response are the greatest lessons I learned from him, the only difference being that I prefer a little more blues edge and harder swing a la Oscar Peterson, my main jazz mentor. Of course, OP was also huge on the use of octaves, chords, and call & response phrasing, so blending the two has been my #1 goal when it comes to jazz guitar for as long as I can remember.

Regarding thumb and volume level, when I play octaves and chords I use the side of my thumb the way he did, and the sheer force of the strum gives me enough volume. However, probably due to my classical guitar background, I'm using just a touch of nail (not all flesh) when playing single note solos with the thumb. I think that's why it often sounds to me as though I was using a pick. As a result I get more volume than if I were going flesh only. Ideally I prefer to leave my guitar/amp volume settings the same and get what I want with the technique itself.

- Mark
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark. Makes sense.

I have to admit, however, that I play the single lines with a pick. And I barely can get the thumb technique down for chords, much less single line stuff! I also appreciate your comment about slides, which should help the thumb technique.

For us thumb novices, does it make sense to increase the volume setting for octaves? Or is it essential to "tough it out" and get the thumb working on single line solos?
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Thanks Mark. Makes sense.

I have to admit, however, that I play the single lines with a pick. And I barely can get the thumb technique down for chords, much less single line stuff! I also appreciate your comment about slides, which should help the thumb technique.

For us thumb novices, does it make sense to increase the volume setting for octaves? Or is it essential to "tough it out" and get the thumb working on single line solos?


Len,

No problem. I believe in being as wide open technically as possible. Most of my guitar solos are done with a pick and I plan to continue doing so, but taking on the thumb challenge has already paid great dividends for me all the way around. First of all, when you've been at this as long as I have, you don't expect to see a great deal of progress in a short time, so that's been very exciting and inspiring. Second is that solving the thumb a la Wes required a modest overhaul of my left-hand approach, and the results are tremendously beneficial regardless of whether I'm using a pick or my thumb. It's also given me deeper insight into George Benson, who models his pick use after Wes' thumb approach (almost all downstrokes with plenty of left-hand slurs).

If you mute all unwanted strings when playing octaves like Wes did, then you can use as much force as you like with your thumb. In other words, when I play octaves I'm always strumming all six strings but all that comes out are the two that I want to be heard. What I'd recommend on the single-line front is that you do what I did, which is to take a few of your favorite jazz licks and try to adjust the left-hand to complement the right. No more than a few minutes each day just as a means to an end. I wish I had started this a LONG time ago, but as they say, "Better late than never!" Wink

- Mark
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark.

By the way, I found a good way to practice Wes octaves.

I transcribe and memorize the phrase first as a single line. Only when I know the single line, I add the octave. It really helps my understanding and keeps the shapes from getting in the way of my ear (especially the change of shape on the second string).

I used to play octaves directly, without learning the single line first. I find my new method more musical (and less rote).
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:01 pm    Post subject: Octave Tips Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Thanks Mark. By the way, I found a good way to practice Wes octaves.

I transcribe and memorize the phrase first as a single line. Only when I know the single line, I add the octave. It really helps my understanding and keeps the shapes from getting in the way of my ear (especially the change of shape on the second string).

I used to play octaves directly, without learning the single line first. I find my new method more musical (and less rote).


Len,

My pleasure. I've got a couple of solid tips when it comes to getting your octave thing underway:

First, as far as licks are concerned, I would highly recommend that you center your initial attention on slow blues (e.g. Red House, Stormy Monday, etc), because it's so easy to visualize basic clichés and either the blues or minor pentatonic scales. Start with I-IV-V progressions to keep things as simple as possible, although this octave chorus from my "Kitchen Sink Blues" solo will give you an idea of what's possible at that tempo with jazzier changes and using call & response chord punches. To hear the entire solo, click here. Note that in keeping with the Wes tradition but from a more R&B standpoint, the octave solo is set up by a series of choruses that feature a mix of single-lines, double-stops, and chord punches.

Second, the reason why I authored the "Wes Lives" octave series within the lesson program was to underline the value in practicing and applying octaves specifically to ballads, bossa novas, and swing tunes with long sustained figures. These vehicles lend themselves perfectly to octave interpretation, so you accomplish that goal as well as giving yourself a fatter way of playing a melody in a jazz context. Just pop open a fakebook each day and practice sight-reading heads in octaves.

Ballad examples might include tunes like Round Midnight, Misty, Angel Eyes, Willow Weep for Me, and countless others. Latin candidates can range from Jobim classics like Girl From Ipanema, Meditation, and Corcovado to Gentle Rain and Black Orpheus by Bonfa to latin-jazz numbers like Song for My Father, Cantaloupe Island, etc, etc. There are many swing possibilities, like Satin Doll, I'll Remember April, Autumn Leaves, All the Things You Are, etc. You can even choose uptempo jazz tunes as long as they have long sustains, like Giant Steps, Countdown, Tune Up, Cherokee, Lady Bird, and so on.

And remember that you can never slur too much in my book, because slides just bring the octaves to life, which you'll find evident in every one of my octave-based recordings. I have too many that fit that description to post, but check out the head renditions in my renditions of Misty (Errol Garner), How Insensitive (Jobim), and Stella by Starlight (Victor Young), to hear what I'm talking about. Go through any "A" section and try to count the number of slurs (you'll probably lose track Laughing ). Btw, these are the full versions, including rubato intros and solos. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome solo Mark! You've got a great feel for the blues.
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