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The Great Masters

 
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: The Great Masters Reply with quote

It is a well-known fact that Wes, George and others didn't read music. And they learned the vocabulary by transcribing.

But how much theory did they know? I find it easier to understand how someone would learn from transcribing if they understood at least how to apply a major scale and its chords (and knew where notes were on the neck).

In my own limited experience (although I've taken a lot of music theory), I've found that only Theory 101 is really necessary, if you transcribe.

Any thoughts?
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Gorecki
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Glenwood, MD

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree for the most part. Basic understanding of scale composition, intervals and harmony will get lots of milage for most people looking to learn or play material and understand it.

Now the GOTCHA! The ability to communicate. Wink

The greats mentioned as well as a favorite of mine (Joe Pass) were/are great and will known 'performers' of material. But in nearly all cases are only that, performers and not composers. They play/played other peoples material.

So here is the ultimate question? Is it such a good idea to promote not really knowing theory? Especially when taking into consideration, who would write or have written all the material these people are famous for performing.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I wasn't trying to say that one shouldn't learn theory. It's just that there are "diminishing returns" to learning too much. Theory 101 takes you through scales, intervals and how to build chords. After that, if you can't apply more advanced material, theoretical knowledge is not that valuable.

Unless you are going to compose classical music or advanced jazz, advanced theory doesn't do much for you. All the time spent sitting in counterpoint, orchestration and form classes (as well as understanding proper voice leading, French 6ths, Italian 6ths, etc.) could be spent studying real-life examples of what you've already learned.

There is some stuff from second-year theory that is, of course, helpful. And some jazz theory is also helpful. In addition to chords, intervals, and scales, I think the following also are helpful:

tritone substitutions
back cycling (preceding chords with their dominants or ii-V's)
basic forms (AABA, blues)
seventh chords
basic substitutions (ii and V substitute for each other, vi and IV for ii, vi and III for I, etc)
harmonic and melodic minor scales and their basic harmonies (mostly ii-7b5 V7 with alterations)
diminished chords

everything else is hard to apply unless your playing is very advanced -- and by that point, your ear is probably so good that you don't need all the theory anyways.
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorecki wrote:
Is it such a good idea to promote not really knowing theory? Especially when taking into consideration, who would write or have written all the material these people are famous for performing.


I think that you are right on the money as theory as way of communicating
ideas and having supporting role. But the most important part is ability
to hear - without working on it no amount of theory can help.
My own biggest mistake as musician was relying on written material and
approaching improvisation through theory - instead of developing my ears.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point. I too made the mistake of learning way more theory than my ear could keep up with. As a result, it had diminished value. If you can't hear something before you play (or compose) it, what good is the knowledge? Maybe the best way to learn more advanced theory concepts (beyond first semester music theory) is to only learn them as fast as your ear can absorb them. Or learn theory through transcribing. Both methods work.
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Tony



Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Milwaukie Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think understanding Scales and music theory aren't as applicable to
improvisation as they are to composing good Chord Melodies.
Most of my jazz skill is in the area of Chord Melodies and not Soloing or improvisation. My goal is to transition to being able to solo over the chord changes to my favorite Chord melodies.

On this forum I keep reading opinions from a lot of people including Mark
that theory and scales aren't as important as ones ability to transcribe
other players music. I agree with this to a point but how many of you have the ability to transcribe a chord melody as well as you can a Solo by
your favorite Jazz guitarists or saxaphone player. You need a good understanding of Chord theory, which is founded in Scales theory to achieve proficiency with composing a good chord melody. This is all
means to an end and I won't be so quick to discount it.

When I can solo over the chord changes that are in my Chord melodies
I will have achieved a major goal. This is why I am studying With Mark Stefani....... no doubt it's the best way to achieve this goal but what I learn from Mark will be built on my foundation of Chord theory and scales.
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony wrote:
I think understanding scales and music theory aren't as applicable to improvisation as they are to composing good Chord Melodies.


Tony,

There's no harm whatsoever in a basic understanding of scales and music theory, whether you are using that knowledge as a reference for either improv or chord-melody arranging. The only problem is when you rely on that knowledge as the primary means to improvise and arrange, putting it first and as a prerequisite before you can be artistically creative. For instance, I often meet guitarists and students who are afraid to challenge themselves because they are convinced that they lack the classroom theory that they think is necessary to succeed. That simply isn't true. What they lack is experience gleaned from improvising and arranging on a regular (daily) basis. It only remains a mystery if you avoid it.

When I do a chord-melody arrangement, while I am certainly aware of basic diatonic theory, that knowledge wasn't acquired beforehand. It was through making observation after observation from one tune to another, then taking what I learned and applying it to the next arranging project. So I highly recommend a background in theory, but one acquired through the experience (mistakes and all Wink) and not from a pre-ordained set of rules. Just a question of not putting the cart before the horse and keeping the mental side in the background, where it belongs. Til next time...

- Mark
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