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Transcribing Shapes

 
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:10 pm    Post subject: Transcribing Shapes Reply with quote

I've noticed from transcribing that the licks of riff-based players -- such as Robben Ford, Benson, Grant, Kenny and Wes -- fit nicely over CAGED shapes and the underlying modal patterns. So, if you think of shapes/patterns, it's easier to remember the riffs.

Has anyone else noticed this or thought of it in this way? Is this a recommended way to learn? It sort of seems that by thinking in this way, you can cover scale practice, arpeggio drills, and transcribing in one fell swoop.
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you mean by "riff based" players?
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By "riff based," I mean players that play licks or riffs, rather than relying on scales. I'm not sure that it's a precise distinction, because most players combine the two, but some sound more scale-based than others. IMHO -- and Mark please chime in here -- that blues-oriented players sound more lick-based.

I understand that it's a controversial statement because: a) licks come from scales, and b) everyone uses a combination of the two to some degree. It's really just more of a sound, and how music sounds to me.
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:31 am    Post subject: Re: Riff-Based? Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
By "riff based," I mean players that play licks or riffs, rather than relying on scales. I'm not sure that it's a precise distinction, because most players combine the two, but some sound more scale-based than others. IMHO -- and Mark please chime in here -- that blues-oriented players sound more lick-based.

I understand that it's a controversial statement because: a) licks come from scales, and b) everyone uses a combination of the two to some degree. It's really just more of a sound, and how music sounds to me.


Lenny,

First of all, I've got to believe that Houston Dave was asking that question tongue-in-cheek, because his playing is all about riffs and licks (not scales, although he does know them). Wink

Second, the vast majority of riffs/licks I play do not come from scales, unless I'm purposely playing something like a pentatonic sequence. I suppose that if I had to come up with a scale reference to explain language, it would have to be the chromatic scale, since any of the twelve notes can be used (even if only as a passing tone). Hence lies the fallacy of scale-based improvisation, because inevitably you leave out notes and therefore restrict your potential creativity.

As you say and I agree, it really comes down to sounds as opposed to scales. One represents freedom, the other a harmonic prison. However, even a riff-based player like myself would recommend leaving no stones unturned and learning scales along with everything else. The most important thing is to avoid relying on them, because I have yet to hear one scale-based improviser who rings my bell. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark.

I agree -- the licks do make it easier to solo. It's liberating to find that you can move licks around the fingerboard like you can chord shapes. Difficult-to-play changes can become manageable.

I do find, however, that I can see chord shapes under most licks, and that makes them easier to remember (and to morph).
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Shapes Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
I've noticed from transcribing that the licks of riff-based players -- such as Robben Ford, Benson, Grant, Kenny and Wes -- fit nicely over CAGED shapes and the underlying modal patterns. So, if you think of shapes/patterns, it's easier to remember the riffs.

Has anyone else noticed this or thought of it in this way?


Yes, I have noticed this. For example, I can remember the opening to K. Burrell's solo to If You Could See Me Now, using the C shape for the B flat chord on the 10th position, the tune is in B flat.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I find it helpful overall to notice the shapes. I try to look for CAGED shapes in everything -- from transcribing, to rhythm guitar, to arranging, because it makes it so much easier to remember things and integrate.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Shapes Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Yes, I find it helpful overall to notice the shapes. I try to look for CAGED shapes in everything -- from transcribing, to rhythm guitar, to arranging, because it makes it so much easier to remember things and integrate.


Lenny,

I neglected to comment on that point. When I used to practice scales it was along the lines of the CAGED system but a bit more extended to nine different starting points for the root in every octave/position, starting at the nut and working up the neck through duplication at the 12th fret. Then I'd rotate keys on a regular basis so that the roots were constantly shifting. Eventually I visualized my entire lick vocabulary along similar lines, then dropped my scale routine altogether. Nowadays the only "shapes" I visualize and connect with sounds are chord voicings, which makes much more sense to me.

- Mark
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, my question was tongue-in-cheek. I have run the gamut in trying to sound like a jazz player. I started, as Mark did, only using scales. Not anymore. I have heard, probably not true, that Wes didn't know the names of the chords he played. He just played what sounded good to him. I tend to reference chords now if I use shapes as I can readily "see" the notes of the chord for soloing. Although, when I am just blowing sometimes I don't know what I was thinking, it just comes out. Of course on close inspection, they are all things I have played many times before.
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Shapes Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Has anyone else noticed this or thought of it in this way? Is this a recommended way to learn? It sort of seems that by thinking in this way, you can cover scale practice, arpeggio drills, and transcribing in one fell swoop.


Jim Ferguson has fairly decent book on ii-V-I based on shapes:
"Shapes, Patterns & Lines for Jazz Guitar"
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Brad Kinder



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really use the cage shapes so much but when I'm learning licks I visualize them over the chord grip and take note of what chord tone it starts and ends on. That's usually how I catalog them in my brain at first until they just become sounds that I can use at will.
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad Kinder wrote:
I don't really use the cage shapes so much but when I'm learning licks I visualize them over the chord grip and take note of what chord tone it starts and ends on. That's usually how I catalog them in my brain at first until they just become sounds that I can use at will.


Brad,

Joe Pass would be smiling to hear your thoughts regarding chord shapes related to sounds. Wink That's what works for me, too.

- Mark
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