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Playing "what you hear in your head"

 
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Playing "what you hear in your head" Reply with quote

Hearing a phrase in your head is one thing. Being able to
reproduce it on guitar is another. Being able to sing it is
yet another. Plus I would think that there are certain degrees
of how much ahead you can hear - just a few notes, complete
phrase or maybe even complete solos. And how detailed is
what you can hear.

In my very modest case I definitely hear phrases - but often
they are incomplete - eg. it is a rhythmic idea but with some
vague pitches which I can reproduce them in only approximate
way.

I certainly cannot control my voice well enough to sing them
(unless I am singing a very concrete phrase that I borrowed
from a music I transcribed in the past). And I can only think
few notes ahead - mostly as call and response way.

As from playing from fingers I definitely do it - and easy way
to for me to "play from the head" is simply to play call part
and let the response part be imagined - and played. Sometimes
it allows me after few phrases to rely less and less on
memorized licks. And sometimes it does not work.

So here is something I want to try in next few days - decouple the
two steps - if I cannot go from head to guitar perhaps I can try
to at least to sing "what I hear". I rigged mike to my mixer, out
some Holy Grail reverb in effect loop and just took simple backup
track from Band-In-A-Box: bass and drums at 135bpm.

Then I imagined mysel driving on a highway so no one is listening.
I have horrible singing voice - range like bagpipes (9 notes or so)
and sounding equally good - my forte was always Dylan's impressions.

I just did the second take and I think it is encouraging - I came up
with some phrases that I do not recognize from my guitar playing.
Then I will try to transcribe them.

Aloha,

JT
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4gcole



Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should try improv "three way"

1.sing and play ala Benson
2.sing then play
3. Just sing

Do this all on a major scale consecutive notes (no skips) in free time in a key that's easy for you to sing in. This will strengthen your voice and train your ears to recognize the pitches better.

Keep your ideas short and really simple. Over time your ideas will get better and longer.
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Gorecki
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Glenwood, MD

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a little formula I use but sometime it doesn't always work.

I listen to things so I can hear them in my head, or I'm already hearing it.

Once I hear it in my head I can usually sing it or hum it.

If I can sing it (usually but not always) then I can play it (most of the time).

You don't have to be a great vocalist, even humming is enough. I mean, have you ever listened to Keith Jarrot? I struggle with his recording sometimes because he moans like a dying cat! But that's okay! It gets what needs to be done for him. Oscar Peterson does the same thing and man...I don't care, the dude rocks! Laughing
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I scat a lot. Even on gigs over the mike. I have never found it real valuable though for playing anything different that what I would have played anyway. I know a lot of great players seem to think it is very valuable. For me it is just an interesting way to embellish my lines. I can sing anything I play and play anything I sing minus vocal range limitations so I don't get the importance of it.

Dave
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a pretty interesting chapter from Joey Goldstein book:
http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/JGM/chap20.pdf

You can get the whole thing online at:
http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/JGM/jgm.htm

I have it and I definitely rcommend it.

JT
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Fajah



Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm listening to a tune and like a phrase, from either a guitar or a horn solo, I'll download the tune, or play the CD through this freeware software;

http://www.xs4all.nl/~mp2004/bp/#download

I usually isolate the phrase, loop it, low it down, and try to sing it. I generally don't try and mimmick it note for note. I try to apply it as a base idea and look to see how I can improvise coming in and out of the base phrase. I also take note of the chord changes the base phrase was played over, so I can apply it to other tunes. A new phrase for me is at first mechanical, and requires a conscience effort to throw it into a solo. Eventually, it just becomes part of me, and I don't think about it when improvising.

Lawrie
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fajah wrote:
play the CD through this freeware software;
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mp2004/bp/#download


I use Transcribe:
http://www.seventhstring.com/

it is not free ($50 or so) but is very stable plus you get upgrades
for free. It also hase some nice features like pitch adjustement.
It gives you spectral analysis over keyboard for the highlighted
phrase and that limits the choices of notes. It can also do some
gueswork on chord for the highlighted part of the tune.

JT
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HJ



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject: Transcribing and scatting Reply with quote

Hello Guitar Gents,
These are such great subjects you choose to discuss, and I really enjoy reading about everyone's experiences. This hearing and scatting subject is very important to playing jazz and any other music as well. I was always around older musicians and this is something they all did; scat.

I've always used my ear, voice, and guitar in this way to learn and absorb new music. Though they seem separate, the process of transcribing, scatting, and playing what you hear in your mind's ear on your instrument are very much connected to each other. The more you do them together, the more rewards you reap from their connection.

I call these steps to learning, "LSP". This stands for, "Listen, Scat, Play".The ability to hear 4 and 8 bars ahead in whatever song you're playing is another ability aquired from the using LSP as a learning tool. In order to stretch my ears, I listen to pianists like McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, Oscar Peterson, Bud Powell, and horn players like John Coltrane, Sonny Stitt, Bird, Dizzy, Clifford Brown, Lee Morgan, and Freddie Hubbard.

I pick a song from one of their recordings I like and learn to scat every note they play. Then, after I have internalized the whole solo, I play the chords for myself while I scat the solo. When I can do this, I transfer what I scat onto the fingerboard by closing my eyes and connecting my ears and voice to my fingers. I then go back and isolate any particular II V's that I like and use them in every place possible within a blues. Try and see if this process will work for you. Let me know what any of you discover about your wonderful musical ears.

Thanks for letting me share,
Henry
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Brad Kinder



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing and scatting Reply with quote

HJ wrote:
I pick a song from one of their recordings I like and learn to scat every note they play. Then, after I have internalized the whole solo, I play the chords for myself while I scat the solo. When I can do this, I transfer what I scat onto the fingerboard by closing my eyes and connecting my ears and voice to my fingers. I then go back and isolate any particular II V's that I like and use them in every place possible within a blues. Try and see if this process will work for you. Let me know what any of you discover about your wonderful musical ears.


Henry, Thanks for posting your thoughts on this. This is just great, solid advise and the exact type of thing that I need to work on to get my ears working at the next level.

On the George Benson "Art of Jazz Guitar" video and there's a moment when he's really focusing on what his hands are doing and he stumbles a little. He explains that watching his hands will actually mess him up because he has such a strong ear-to-hand connection that his fingers just instinctively know where to go to get at a note he's hearing. If he's over thinking about what his fingers are doing his brain just gets in the way and slows the whole process down. I think that ties right in to what you're saying about closing your eyes and connecting your ears and voice to your fingers. That is a level of "hearing" that I'm really trying to get at.
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bigdaddydannyq



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great ideas guitar friends. Its amazing that we can discuss these types of questions with guys like HJ. If youv'e heard him then you know he's the real thing man.If you haven't then you need to.
The way I approach a solo is to learn the melody or head of the tune first. Inside and out. Until I can hear it in my head. Then I will usually look at the harmony and see where its actually going. IE: the chord progression. At that point I will start working with the notes in the chords and looking for II V's every where I can. Sometimes I even make up II V's where there isn't any. Sometimes it works and sometime it doesn't. I try and write the skeleton of the idea down on some staff paper. That gives me a road map of where at the very least I want to go.And because of the seveties I can remember what I did. Don't forget to use the blues runs that are everywhere man but don't wheigh to heavy on them,(remember melody is key.)Then I play through it until it feels right. When I get in an improve setting I can let it lose and usually the lead goes great . But sometimes its a train wreck. I just tell the boys in the band if that happens just keep going and accent the one after the turn around and I will find my way home eventually. HA!!!
Anything can happen in live music!!
Big Daddy.
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Gorecki
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Glenwood, MD

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: Transcribing and scatting Reply with quote

HJ wrote:

I call these steps to learning, "LSP". This stands for, "Listen, Scat, Play".The ability to hear 4 and 8 bars ahead in whatever song you're playing is another ability aquired from the using LSP as a learning tool. In order to stretch my ears, I listen to pianists like McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, Oscar Peterson, Bud Powell, and horn players like John Coltrane, Sonny Stitt, Bird, Dizzy, Clifford Brown, Lee Morgan, and Freddie Hubbard.

Thanks for letting me share,


No, thank you Henry! Thumbs Up!

This is basically what I do but really not the same. Mine for jazz is sooo much more rudimentary. As in learning standards I simply never knew. I'm a jazz late bloomer, I'll admit it! Laughing The very first time I sat down to play Misty, I had listened to Mr Garner a dozen times. Sat down with the guitar, playing the chords while "la-de-da" singing the melody. It felt very good and even my teenage daughter was snooping on me thought it was pretty. But after that, I knew the tune! I've progressed substantially since then but the idea/practice absolutely works! Wink
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Don Mitchell



Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Transcribing and scatting Reply with quote

HJ wrote:
I pick a song from one of their recordings I like and learn to scat every note they play. Then, after I have internalized the whole solo, I play the chords for myself while I scat the solo. When I can do this, I transfer what I scat onto the fingerboard by closing my eyes and connecting my ears and voice to my fingers. I then go back and isolate any particular II V's that I like and use them in every place possible within a blues. Try and see if this process will work for you. Let me know what any of you discover about your wonderful musical ears.


First of all, welcome to the forum, Henry!

Your process reminds me of the teaching style of Pianist and jazz improvization guru Lennie Tristano. I read years ago that he would have his students (most notably Lee Koonitz and another reed player whose name I am blanking on now) learn solos strictly by ear so that they could sing the solo to him from memory before he would let them play it on their instrument. Many speculated that he did this because he was blind and it was the way he learned to play. That no doubt has a measure of truth to it, but the benefits to "ear" development and the internalization of jazz vocabulary seem unarguable. Which leaves me asking myself: why haven't I ever tried this? Rolling Eyes

Thanks for your contribution.

Don
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John G



Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried this on a few solos and I have to agree with everyone's comments so far. Learning to sing the solo before learning to play it makes the whole transcription process easier and helps to internalize the sound.

The best part about the process is you can do it anywhere, without guitar in hand. On days when I have to spend a significant amount of time in my car I will try to use it constructively by memorizing and singing some parts of a solo. I always like to try and play it first from memory when I get back to my guitar, then check it against the recording and see how I did.

There are some great ideas around here! Smile
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