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Improvisation - spontaneous or not?

 
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:06 pm    Post subject: Improvisation - spontaneous or not? Reply with quote

Having transcribed many artists' work in the past few years I am now wondering just how spontaneous those great solos were. One case in point: I recently transcribed Miles' solo in But Not For Me. I understand almost everything he did, but what stands out is the lyricism and unusual timing of the phrases. I would assume that he conceptualized his ideas, notated them and refined them through practice. If he or Bird or any of those guys could just knock out those lines on the fly I'm going back to rock and roll.
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Improvisation - spontaneous or not? Reply with quote

Larry_DC wrote:
Having transcribed many artists' work in the past few years I am now wondering just how spontaneous those great solos were. One case in point: I recently transcribed Miles' solo in But Not For Me. I understand almost everything he did, but what stands out is the lyricism and unusual timing of the phrases. I would assume that he conceptualized his ideas, notated them and refined them through practice. If he or Bird or any of those guys could just knock out those lines on the fly I'm going back to rock and roll.


You would need to define "spontaneous" - is it a line that NEVER been
played or practiced by musician before (even as slightly similar form)?
If so then I guess you can avoid going back to tight spandex because
there is probably no such thing as "spontaneous".
To me fact that jazz improviser recycles phrases does not take from the
idea of spontaneous creation - the overal ability to control the balance,
structure and flow of entire solo is more important than recycling.

I was talking with a friend today about Chitlins con Carne - and listening
to Kenny Burrell and SRV soloing over it - both of them "improvise" but
KB is tight and in complete control - when he is done je hands over the
well made statement to next soloist. SRV just plays too many notes and
his solo runs in in few dead ends before just going back to melody.

If you chop the solos finely enough then you see small note pattern
being reused all over the place. I guess the longer the phrase the less
probability of it being exactly reused. But then of course you need to
account for all possibilities of modifying phrase by harmonically equivalent
means - inverting scale pattern or transposing key notes by octave. Or
shifting it by minor third. Dunno how obvious to you it is that it may be
essentially the same phrase - I do not have good enough ears to hear
such modified ideas as same.

On the third hand if the "spontaneous" means that merely creating on the
spot perfectly swinging, rhythmically rich structure that has natural
emotional flow in it then I guess all good jazz is spontaneous. Rhythm
is everything.
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Improvisation - spontaneous or not? Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
On the third hand if the "spontaneous" means that merely creating on the spot perfectly swinging, rhythmically rich structure that has natural emotional flow in it then I guess all good jazz is spontaneous. Rhythm
is everything.


You've said it in a nutshell. All those elements are present in the solo I described. The more I analyze it the more I understand that Miles was to a degree drawing on motifs and devices from previous works. He was just so darn good at playing all around a melody without ever losing it. That level of improvisation is stratospheric.
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you get mad and yell at somebody, is it spontaneous? Did you imrovise? Was it memorable? Smile

Dave
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
When you get mad and yell at somebody, is it spontaneous? Did you imrovise? Was it memorable? Smile

Dave


Yes, yes, and yes Smile If only it was that easy to play.
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think these guys probably experimented heavily and therefore made all their mistakes before actually sitting down and being recorded. Some may have written basic ideas down and framed up a solo and others probably did not need to do so but still had a good idea of what they were going to play and where. I also believe they played their instruments so much that any stock phrases they came up with eventually became second nature and therefore sounded spontaneous because they could apply their stock phrases at will and even twist and turn them at will as well. For those of us with not enough time to memorize every line we could possibly use I suggest writing out our own model solos. I don't think there is any shame in playing the same solo or phrase more than twice.

Don MacArthur
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: Model Solos Reply with quote

Don MacArthur wrote:
I think these guys probably experimented heavily and therefore made all their mistakes before actually sitting down and being recorded. Some may have written basic ideas down and framed up a solo and others probably did not need to do so but still had a good idea of what they were going to play and where. I also believe they played their instruments so much that any stock phrases they came up with eventually became second nature and therefore sounded spontaneous because they could apply their stock phrases at will and even twist and turn them at will as well. For those of us with not enough time to memorize every line we could possibly use I suggest writing out our own model solos. I don't think there is any shame in playing the same solo or phrase more than twice.


Don,

You are 100% on the $$ with those thoughts and advice, my friend. There is a mythical, prevailing illusion that great jazz improvisers like Trane, Bird, and others had some inate ability to just hear the language at birth. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Long before Trane ever recorded his epic Giant Steps, he used to jam for hours on end with Freddie Hubbard backing him up on piano, constantly experimenting and even falling asleep with the horn in his mouth on Freddie's couch. Anyone who really takes the time to investigate and listen to the alternate takes on GS will hear that Trane was continually exploring and "modeling" different ideas for those famous changes.

How about Charlie Parker? I mean, he didn't even use his own models, but those of Coleman Hawkins and Lester Young to acquire his language, and every one of Bird's famous bebop compositions is really his model solo on a well-known standard progression.

And then there's Wes Montgomery, the father of bebop jazz guitar, who couldn't even improvise early on and instead played Charlie Christian solos note for note. Like Bird he used an influential player as his "model" for what he eventually became.

So when it comes to the "shame" factor? Well, all I've got to say is that if the modeling path was good enough for some of the greatest innovators in jazz history, it's certainly good enough for yours truly. Wink

- Mark
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's good to see these perspectives. I'm at the point where I transcribe solos and play them ad infinitum along with the original CD's until the flow feels natural. It's a good feeling to play along with Bird and Miles. I also craft model solos now and then, but don't stray too far from them since I can't pull up ideas on the fly just yet and make them connect. One step at a time.
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most music is borrowed in some form or fashion, and most people can not tell the difference anyway.So if it fits and sounds good use it.I think it is some sort of flattery anyway.Just when asked ,give credit where credit is due.
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Urs Helfenstein



Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Lucerne, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All those thoughts about improvisation are very interesting to read for me. But I think, not only improvising is like a language, that every one – even the strongest – has to learn first before being able to create great music. For the great composers in classical music it was about the same: Even Mozart, who learned very fast and started to write his own music as a little child, had to learn the language of the music of his days step by step. There is a book by Konrad Kuester – sorry, I think it’s not available in English – in which the author shows, how the little Wolfgang Amadeus discovered the “secrets” of composing one by one. And he discovered them by playing the music of others, by studying it, by discussing it (like the members of the great quintet of Miles Davis in the sixties discussed every gig after it was finished) and by doing the same exercises over and over. Becoming a musician is like becoming a writer: You have to learn the language before you are able to tell a story.
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:22 pm    Post subject: Learning the Language Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
And he discovered them by playing the music of others, by studying it, by discussing it (like the members of the great quintet of Miles Davis in the sixties discussed every gig after it was finished) and by doing the same exercises over and over. Becoming a musician is like becoming a writer: You have to learn the language before you are able to tell a story.


Urs,

Excellent! VERY well said, my friend. Btw, it's great to see you over here, and thanks for taking the time to participate in our forum. I hope you continue to contribute your thoughts to our discussions. All for now...

- Mark
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