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Melodyne DNA technology
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:43 am    Post subject: Melodyne DNA technology Reply with quote

The new 'Melodyne' software with 'Direct Note Access' may be of interest to some in the forum.
Certainly, an excellent tool on monophonic sources, I'm interested to try out this 'polyphonic' version.

Nice demo movie, guitar audio source;

http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=dna


There may be a great potential as an alaysis/transcribing tool; other things too.


-kb
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While this is pretty cool,I personaly do not want perfiction in my music.To me ,the little things make up the soul of the music.I think that is why more people are going back to tube amps and vinal records.Some people call mastakes blues or jazz.JMO
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Gorecki
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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Location: Glenwood, MD

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice lookin tool! I really like it can act as a VST plugin. It's a little pricy but for someone who does a lot of trans-work could be priceless!

Nice find! Thumbs Up!
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is slightly less awesome is the price on this thing - $700 for
the full version... For that kind of money maybe I should work harder
on getting my ears in shape (and using Transcribe! or any other tool out
there).
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
What is slightly less awesome is the price on this thing - $700 for
the full version... For that kind of money maybe I should work harder
on getting my ears in shape (and using Transcribe! or any other tool out
there).



The 'plug-in' version is far less expensive;

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MelodynePlug/

'plug-in version 2.0' will higher be priced than the current retail price at Sweetwater, but way less than 700 USD.

Still a good idea to get the ears in shape.

-kb
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kbgtr001 wrote:
Still a good idea to get the ears in shape.


Kb,

Thanks for posting. I finally got a chance to come up for air and check this out. Very interesting and I'm always fascinated by breakthroughs in audio editing and recording. I also had to laugh while reading Dean's "perfection" comment because, while I truly agree with him in many ways, this software would have been quite handy when we were recording our jazz guitar/sax duo CD back in '96.

Never was intonation such a nightmare with that project. After we had arranged and recorded all the initial tracks, the producer said he wanted the intonation to be "absolutely perfect." Understand that it was really good, certainly good enough for almost any listener, but he was calling the shots and we had no choice but to do it all over again. Only this time it was the most grueling recording process I've ever done.

Since the sax played to the guitar accompaniment and I was on an archtop (not the best for intonation), I ended up having to tune every note in every chord, bar by bar. Even then there were many retakes, and you can only imagine how difficult it was to concentrate on performance and emotional continuity under those circumstances? It took us countless hours to redo those 12 tracks and that included a mountain of pitch-correcting on the sax side, using pretty archaic software along with ProTools at the time.

Of course, we did achieve perfection plus the disc got 5-star reviews and sold 40,000 copies in its first year, not bad for a jazz release. But I would never go through something like that again. It was challenging enough playing fingerstyle jazz on a '70 Super 400 with such a narrow neck, but in retrospect I'm proud of how it all turned out. To hear a little chord-melody work by yours truly on "Someday My Prince Will Come," click here.

Without the sax on my solo parts, at least I could avoid retuning and just play! Wink All for now...

- Mark
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
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Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,Mark while that was great playing....it did not have alot of soul...but like you stated that's what they wanted.I can see the tool for what it is,and I am sure it is very helpful.Having said that ,give me live soulful playing,with mistakes anyday.I guess I just think music should be fun,period.people who break everything down ,to me ,are missing the best part of the experince.Just enjoy it and laugh and have fun.Life is just to short,and anyone with the balls to get up in front of people and play and sing ,get my vote for just getting up, good or bad.Wish I could have met you at NAMM ,maybe next year.You seem to be like most of the people I meet in the bizz.,really down to earth and humble and helpful.My playing is comming along ,so look out,I'am comming mistakes and all.
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kbgtr001 wrote:
The 'plug-in' version is far less expensive;
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MelodynePlug/
'plug-in version 2.0' will higher be priced than the current retail price at Sweetwater, but way less than 700 USD.
Still a good idea to get the ears in shape.
-kb


Right but that is good for pitch correction on multitrack recording and not
for transcribing - it is probably good it is so expensive - it would be very
tempting to stop sweating over some Oscar's solo and just feed it to S/W.
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
After we had arranged and recorded all the initial tracks, the producer said he wanted the intonation to be "absolutely perfect."


I would "some" degree of imperfection almost necessary for blues
oriented music so fixing it by hand without software intelligent enough
to understand such issues must have been nightmarish.
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
kbgtr001 wrote:
The 'plug-in' version is far less expensive;
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MelodynePlug/
'plug-in version 2.0' will higher be priced than the current retail price at Sweetwater, but way less than 700 USD.
Still a good idea to get the ears in shape.
-kb


Right but that is good for pitch correction on multitrack recording and not
for transcribing - it is probably good it is so expensive - it would be very
tempting to stop sweating over some Oscar's solo and just feed it to S/W.


The considerably less expensive 'Melodyne plugin 2' will include the same 'Direct Note Access technology' as the full 'Melodyne Studio.' Pitch correction in multitrack recording is one application.

The value return from any tool very much depends on who is using it and how it is used. The software will never be a substitute for understanding and experience nor a quickie fix for the absence of knowledge and hard work.


-kb
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
Hey,Mark while that was great playing....it did not have alot of soul...but like you stated that's what they wanted.I can see the tool for what it is,and I am sure it is very helpful.Having said that ,give me live soulful playing,with mistakes anyday.I guess I just think music should be fun,period.people who break everything down ,to me ,are missing the best part of the experince.Just enjoy it and laugh and have fun.Life is just to short,and anyone with the balls to get up in front of people and play and sing ,get my vote for just getting up, good or bad.Wish I could have met you at NAMM ,maybe next year.You seem to be like most of the people I meet in the bizz.,really down to earth and humble and helpful.My playing is comming along ,so look out,I'am comming mistakes and all.


Everyone makes mistakes and fun is indeed the bottom line in my book, but there is something to be said for those great players who strive for perfection in their work. In other words, what they personally consider a "mistake" is something that the average listener might never recognize. Long before it becomes an obvious gaffe they've turned it into something artistically creative instead.

To me, that skill is the result of having a highly-developed ear, usually through many years of transcribing (written or not) and imitating your mentors. When Chick Corea talks about his evolution as a player and spending years playing along with his influences note-for-note until you couldn't tell that there were two pianos? That's an example of the positive side of perfectionism and breaking things down, and it translates directly to the stage.

While I wouldn't want to go through the recording nightmare I described again, in retrospect it did have a purpose in getting my concentration to a higher level. I agree with you that it's commendable for a player or vocalist to just get up and perform, but if it's a guitarist hitting a lot of obvious clinkers or a singer who can't stay in tune, well... I'd rather they hit the woodshed first Wink .

Thanks for the kind words. Looking forward to meeting you down the road. All for now...

- Mark
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
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Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong ,they have to be able to play first.I heard a story about Doc on the tonight show.It goes like this ,they were playing the intro to the tonight show and Doc hit a wrong note when they played it,So from then on that was the note that he had to play,it was set in stone.I've seen Buddy Guy get so excited that he would twang a note or two.I know that I do not explane myself very well in writing.It's like I said a while back ,I am just afraid that music will become pushing a button, or to easy and people will get lazy ,and the music will get lost.I compare it to counting change at the store....young people now adays can not do it right.They relie on a machine.JMO
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
Don't get me wrong ,they have to be able to play first.I heard a story about Doc on the tonight show.It goes like this ,they were playing the intro to the tonight show and Doc hit a wrong note when they played it,So from then on that was the note that he had to play,it was set in stone.I've seen Buddy Guy get so excited that he would twang a note or two.I know that I do not explane myself very well in writing.It's like I said a while back ,I am just afraid that music will become pushing a button, or to easy and people will get lazy ,and the music will get lost.I compare it to counting change at the store....young people now adays can not do it right.They relie on a machine.JMO


Actually, your fear ("music will become pushing a button") is somewhat well-founded, but you can't replace all the years of hard work that go into the real deal. These technological breakthroughs, as others have put it, are just "tools" to be used by artists on any level. For instance, even some of what we perceive as the most traditional blues and jazz musicians, like B.B. King and Oscar Peterson to name two, became heavily attracted to midi and computer software many years ago. And reflecting on my classical background, I have no doubt whatsoever that the visionary composers who lived in past centuries would have done likewise.

I'll never forget reading an interview with jazz drummer Tony Williams in Downbeat many years ago. This was right about the time that drum machines were surfacing and there was this fear that the technology would somehow replace the real deal. Well, the interviewer asked Tony what he thought of drum machines, obviously expecting him to blast them and those who were using them. Instead, Williams got excited and went on and on talking about all the hip rhythms he was programming. In the hands of a competent artist like him, the technology was the kind of tool that only led to greater expression and creativity, whereas in the hands of some novice with little or no acquired talent it's like a toy or a video game.

That being said, I am in complete agreement with you regarding the laziness issue, because there is no replicating the kind of labor of love and dedication that goes into artistic achievement. Unfortunately, nowadays I see a lot of people (many young) who fail to understand and respect what the term "work ethic" is really all about. All for now...

- Mark
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
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Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, I hear you....I guess I need to let go of the push button thing ,and have faith that there will always be someone putting in the work and skill.Then making tools for tools.I mean jazz won a award this year ,maybe things can go full circle.The more skillful the music,the less the sells ,it seems.Kind of like ,the harder you work phyically ,the less you make.We are on the same page,you just say it better.haha Thanks for the insite,this is a cool thread.
Hey,H.J. ,what do you think about this tool?
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Last edited by Dean on Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
Mark, I hear you....I guess I need to let go of the push button thing ,and have faith that there will always be someone putting in the work and skill.Then making tools for tools.I mean jazz won a award this year ,maybe things can go full circle.The more skillful the music,the less the sells ,it seems.Kind of like ,the harder you work phyically ,the less you make.We are on the same page,you just say it better.haha Thanks for the insite,this is a cool thread.


Interesting that you would mention the "full circle" aspect of music, as my late father would always talk about art being a cyclic affair. Just a couple of days ago, my good friend Henry Johnson and I were talking about the re-emergence of what used to be called "Contemporary Jazz," long before Smooth Jazz and when improvisation was part of the equation with what you would hear on radio stations.

What he said made sense to me, not only artistically but also from what I've seen here in the Portland area, because the #1 smooth station went belly-up 2-3 years ago. Personally, I LOVE groove music with a blues attitude, as long as it's not watered down for the masses by an industry that really doesn't understand what artistic creativity is all about.

- Mark
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