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Tunes for Minor Substitution
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:43 pm    Post subject: Tunes for Minor Substitution Reply with quote

I have heard many great musicians say they always think minor to
superimpose ideas over a family of chords. I do this a lot, often using
JCS backing tracks, and would like to hear how other players use this,
if at all.

For instance, I usually play All Blues using a lot of blues licks. However,
by going to the minor ideas I find I can get kind of a Pat Martino flavor.
I think combining those types of lines with the blues licks makes it
interesting for the listener. What do you guys like to do?

Dave
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Tunes for Minor Substitution Reply with quote

I use this technique a lot as well. I've constructed entire 48 bar model solos using this technique in addition to blending the lines with Major and Dominate blues phrases. Since I have incorporated this technique into my playing I'd have to say that my sound has improved tremendously and the ideas for improvising just keep pouring out as the possibilities are endless. Of course, you have at your disposal a set of solid ii-V lines in which to apply. These can be obtained from any number of sources. The best sounding solid ii-V lines I have been able to instantly apply to my solos are found are in Mark Stefani's Swing Blues Lesson By Mail program.

Don MacArthur
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can sbdy define "minor substutution" ?
Is it the idea of shifting the Dorian scale corresponding to given tonal
center by minor third to create more altered sound when playing over
dominant type of chords?
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
Can sbdy define "minor substutution" ?
Is it the idea of shifting the Dorian scale corresponding to given tonal
center by minor third to create more altered sound when playing over
dominant type of chords?


JT.

Yes, that's one potential application, although I hesitate to use a scale or mode reference as opposed to a "sound" that captures more than seven tones. However, if I had to choose one based on the work of Pat Martino and others, it would be an expanded view of dorian, then superimposed over five families of chords. More on this later...

Dave, thanks for starting this thread, as I have an ongoing fascination with the subject and much to offer fellow players.

And Don? Well, I've had the distinct pleasure of hearing your work and witnessing your obvious evolution as a solid jazz and blues improviser. Keep up the great effort, and now that you've got something to say as a player, please continue to share your valuable thoughts in our forum!

- Mark
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:36 am    Post subject: Minor Sub? Reply with quote

Gentlemen,

I have found that a dom7 chord going to dom7 chord with a 4th relationship, as in the first two chords in a blues, can be seen as a 2-5 move. So, if you're playing a blues called in A, Gmajor is really the major scale I feel that is mostly involved. The reason I bring this up here is because we all sub minors over the A7 when we play A- pentatonic or the blues scale. So really any dom7 chord can be viewed as a minor, at least for a while. The 5 chord in that A blues, if it is a sharp 9 is actually G's relative minor.

Dmajor actually lines up note for note over the A7 chord and D's relative minor is B. If A is seen as a minor, it could be seen as C's relative. So there are cool sounds that go from Bminor up a half step to C and resolve back into the blues somewhere (I like the BB King position).

Am I even on topic anymore? Smile
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: Minor Sub? Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
I have found that a dom7 chord going to dom7 chord with a 4th relationship, as in the first two chords in a blues, can be seen as a 2-5 move.


Bob,

For starters, one of the reasons why I prefer sound-based thinking to scale-based thinking is that the former embraces the latter, but not the other way around. To me, scales or modes always suggest right or wrong notes, so personally it feels like a harmonic prison and too much thought process to boot. Not good when you're improvising on the fly, at least for me. Wink

I followed and found your thoughts interesting, but the one that made the most sense when it comes to jazz language and minor superimposition was the relationship of A7 to D major. Whenever I want to superimpose minor sounds over a dominant chord I simply think of the 5th, so there you have the E minor and its relationship to both A7 and D major. However, I always bypass any D major/parent key thinking and go immediately to E minor, because it reduces my mental process. So if I'm soloing over a three-chord blues in A and wish to get melodic, the superimposition option is Em over A7, Am over D7, and Bm over E7. All, of course, are common II-V relationships stemming from jazz-related music.

Rather than sound too mystical, I'll just share a brief 4-bar excerpt from my recent "Rear View Mirror" blues solo. To hear the clip, click here.

First four bars are A7 (no D7 in the second bar). Opens with A dom blues in bars one and two, mixing double-stops and double-timed single-notes, but check out the E minor superimposition over bars three and four, and if you listen really carefully the little Parker II-V bebop lick right before the band moves to the D7 chord in bar five. Then it's back to A blues. One of my favorite things to do is to blend blues based on the key or chord with this kind of minor over dominant superimposition, something that I picked up on from years of transcribing and observing GB. All for now...

- Mark
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not have all the technical language down,but I put on track Cd's with the knowledge of what key it is in, and will solo over it.Most blues ,goes with a mid tone ,to a high tone to a bass tone,in a rhythmic pattern.So I will ,either solo in the range being played ,or do a complete opposite tone to really separate it out but complement it.Hope this makes sense to you,as my language is sub par in this discussion.I love vibrato and trills,with double stops thrown in.I had a guy in class playing some chords that he put together,so I looked at his hand and figured out the key.I started soloing over it ,and we started jaming.He really liked it.
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:53 am    Post subject: Minor Sub? Reply with quote

"However, I always bypass any D major/parent key thinking and go immediately to E minor.."

Well, we're sort of saying the same thing because I think of Gmaj. A little background before I go on though. I didn't know what a major scale was until I was 35. So I had all these pieces that fit in and around the blues motif before I figured out scale relationships.

I teach the major scale. But I don't teach modes. They're not just confusing to me, but they slice and dice up one thing into seven and who's going to continue to play from G to G, A to A, ect ? Having said that though, the major scale frees up my ear. In this clip I'm really trying to hang out in F major to get a point across as I play to your Stormy Monday in G.

BTW how do you guys show the selected quote in your replies?

Here's the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPex6mTLm_w It's real fresh as of 12:48am Saturday morning Alaska time...
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Minor Sub? Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
I didn't know what a major scale was until I was 35. So I had all these pieces that fit in and around the blues motif before I figured out scale relationships.


Bob,

Ahh... that explains why I enjoy your playing so much! Laughing

Seriously, as much as you do have to know the basics (e.g. major scale), what I've found over the years is that teaching from a scale perspective creates a mindset that there are right notes and wrong notes. So when a student uses that template as a basis for soloing, they miss out on the color that emanates from all of the "wrong" notes.

For instance, the entire gist of the incredibly powerful major blues sound is motion between the minor and major 3rds (Bb to B in the key of G). There is no scale that explains that connection, so unless you do your homework and listen to/emulate all of the great blues artists who "get it," you fail to get it and are left with something devoid of what made Oscar Peterson such a blues master, regardless of context. Even in a traditional blues progression (like Stormy Monday), that knowledge unlocks the power to really get into the changes without sacrificing the soulfulness associated with blues.

Understand that this is something that has fascinated me for as long as I can remember, and even with all of the great blues pros that I've coached over the years, it's still something that eludes many guitarists. The guitar is a very forgiving instrument, so the dynamics (slides, bends, vibrato, etc) can make up for the lack of harmonic imagination. To be honest, I have no problem with that because I LOVE traditional blues, but if you're seeking higher harmonic ground, well... then it becomes an issue. At least it did for me, because I would always wonder how OP would make Misty sound like Stormy Monday. It took a long time and a lot of transcribing to finally figure that out.

On the quote front, just click the quote box in the upper RH corner when you reply to a post. Then you can adjust the quote tags if you only wish to capture a portion of the text.

Footnote to Dean...

There's absolutely nothing wrong with adopting a key-oriented approach to improvising, especially when soloing over the blues. But there are some great options if you wish to add some harmonic color, like Oscar, Benson, and many others. All for now...

- Mark
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've noticed that there are at least two ways to describe the same technique related to the on-going topic. I know that Robert Conti also teaches "think Major" down a whole step method and others use the the "think Minor" method. Personally I've tried both methods and prefer to think minor as its easier for me to manipulate lines once I have them down. I can play a line staying inside, go up a minor third or down a flated fifth, and get all kinds of cool sounds from the same line.

P.S. I like Dave Illig's quote about the hippest note being a rest. Isn't that the truth? I've heard too many players that just want to fill up ever measure with notes. To me it sounds like they are in a race to get to the end of the song. That may be OK for some but my attempt in my solos is to make a statement using less notes, properly placed.

Don MacArthur
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob , I likes your style.You look to be in the groove there.My playing is similar to yours,What I mean by that is ,I use a lot of the fret board and make statements along the way.I will take the same piece of music and play over it ,I will play it using one string then one position,then the whole fret board,to get the feeling across. I just feel the music and play over it,is the way I approach it,and my ear is getting better as to fitting the rhythm and tone to the piece.When I do that it is total improve.Hopefully soon I will be able to post some sounds on this site,and get feed back.
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject: Minor Sub? Reply with quote

Dean,

Thanks pal. I think it's the organizational aspect of the major scale that helps me think linear along the string.

And Mark,

What you said about the minor/major 3rd and there being no scale for that. I say "Yup". But while I'm playing in primarily another key signature, IF i'm using a scale as a guide, I try to keep the major 3rd of the blues key in mind. For one it sounds so spicey... and two, I know you're listening for it!!! Smile
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Mark
VM Coach


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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don MacArthur wrote:
Personally I've tried both methods and prefer to think minor as its easier for me to manipulate lines once I have them down. I can play a line staying inside, go up a minor third or down a flated fifth, and get all kinds of cool sounds from the same line.


Don,

Exactly what Pat Martino got across in the preface of his "Linear Expressions" book many years ago. It basically cemented everything I had logically concluded via transcribing, because I had observed that Pat, GB, and others would be playing the same minor sound but over a static dominant 7th, a minor 7b5, an altered dominant, and even a major 7th#11. So the language remains the same but the effect is different depending on the harmonic situation. Once I made that minor superimposition connection, it was like opening "Pandora's Box." Wink

To underline my point, click here to hear an excerpt from my "Spontaneous Combustion" solo. Modal original in Gm and uptempo, but almost the entire line you're hearing is C minor against a D7#9 (altered dominant) before resolving back to Gm.

Quote:
P.S. I like Dave Illig's quote about the hippest note being a rest. Isn't that the truth? I've heard too many players that just want to fill up ever measure with notes. To me it sounds like they are in a race to get to the end of the song. That may be OK for some but my attempt in my solos is to make a statement using less notes, properly placed."


Amen to that! This is where I feel blessed to have had a horn player for a father. Too many cool quotes from Pop, like "Speed hides a multitude of sin" (in reference to guitar players), or "If you can't hear something strong to say, take a breath." For me, regardless of whether I play fast or slow, every single note or rest has to be meaningful. All for now...

- Mark
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Minor Sub? Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
What you said about the minor/major 3rd and there being no scale for that. I say "Yup". But while I'm playing in primarily another key signature, IF i'm using a scale as a guide, I try to keep the major 3rd of the blues key in mind. For one it sounds so spicey... and two, I know you're listening for it!!! Smile


Bob,

Too funny, man. Wink Well, my sound vs scale point is not so much directed at a veteran player like yourself, but at the multitude of aspiring jazz guitarists who have been misled by supposedly "credible" sources, typically at the academic level. So I am speaking more as an educator trying to get folks on the same "sound" path as Christian, Montgomery, Pass, Benson, etc, the icons who established the gold standard without practicing or thinking scales whatsoever.

Like those players, I prefer sounds based on the harmony and chord shapes/tones at hand, as opposed to using something as limiting as scales or modes as a point of reference. When a student is mistakenly convinced that practicing this or that mode will generate what we hear in Wes, that is WAY off course and only indicates a lack of knowledge on the part of the teacher or author.

It's a very sad situation in my opinion, because you always become what you practice, and aspiring players who subscribe to scale-based thinking and put their faith in those who really can't even speak the language will never reach their potential. Crying or Very sad Even worse, they're left feeling like they just don't have what it takes. I should know, because I was there myself. It's all about finding the right path, which I discovered through observing/studying my mentors. All for now...

- Mark
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a long time I thought that in order to really be a great jazz guitarist I must learn an organized method for improvising. I thought I had to know the major scale and all its modes, Dorian positions, Lydian this - Prygian that, etc. While diving into and spending all free time trying to memorize all of the posibilities may work for some, it sure has not worked for me. Playing scales is boring! Though I still do not consider myself a great Jazz guitarist, I'll admit I've accomplished more via the route of learning great lines and then applying them to a real tune versus the learn this position/scale method.

Most of you probably have seen GBs video on improvising. If you haven't seen it, get it! Not to learn new lines but to see the man in action and hear him discuss his thoughts on improvising. One of my favorite parts of the video is when GB describes how he used to give lessons but had to quit becuase he wasn't getting any teaching done. He was stealling all of the students lines instead! It just goes to show that if you get some solid lines down, twist and turn them, make them your own you, you too can go far.

Get the lines
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