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Dave Illig
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | | Dave Illig wrote: | I think "quality" practice is a personal thing. My idea of quality time may be different than somebody elses. I have made some great break throughs playing while watching the news.
Dave |
Hey Dave, were you playing blues at the time? |
Umm, no, I was drinking beer and working on Round Midnite for an upcoming gig. 
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The hippest note you can play is a rest. |
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thaydon
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: Quality two five licks |
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I have just started creating a few personal 2-5 licks by absorbing material from recordings (i.e., parker, davis etc.). can anyone share their process of doing the same and/or how they went about categorizing their licks and developed the core language?
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sincerely yours,
Todd |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Quality two five licks |
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| thaydon wrote: | | I have just started creating a few personal 2-5 licks by absorbing material from recordings (i.e., parker, davis etc.). can anyone share their process of doing the same and/or how they went about categorizing their licks and developed the core language? |
Todd,
My adventures with jazz licks began 38 years ago, when my late father pulled me aside and said, "Son, if you ever want to play jazz solos and improvise over changes, you've got to get away from that minor pentatonic scale." 
So Pop wrote me out my first group of two-fives (which I still have). I was playing in a little blues trio at the time and we were dabbling in jazz and recording ourselves, so naturally I wanted to try out some of these new ideas. Even though it felt contrived, I had to admit that for the first time I actually sounded like a "jazz guy" when I heard myself playing those licks. Well... let's just say that I was convinced.
Then I started reading magazine articles and books about jazz improv, with the consensus being that two-fives represent perhaps 80% of the changes that are likely to occur in a good jazz solo. Next on the agenda was a long time period devoted to transcribing exclusively two-fives from the recorded solos of Oscar Peterson, Charlie Parker, George Benson, Pat Martino, and many others. Back then I would actually study them with the artist in mind, and had them grouped in a personal "lick book" according to each source.
As my vocabulary grew and grew (did I mention "obsession?"  ), eventually reaching literally hundreds of great clichés, I re-organized everything according to the starting pitch relevant to the IIm7 chord, and all in the key of C for analysis and movement into all playing positions and octaves. That way it made it easy for me to grab this valuable language "on the fly" during solos with as little thinking as possible. In other words, my goal was to play a bebop phrase with no more mental energy than what it takes to bend the right note in a blues solo.
Nowadays everything is a blend for me, not only regarding these licks but also fusing them with my blues background for improvising, composing, and arranging. The bottom line is that practicing tried and true two-fives as part of your core jazz language is critically important and a high-quality use of time. Why? Because once again it's something that you would actually PLAY for someone. All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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thaydon
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:31 am Post subject: Quality two five licks |
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Mark;
Thanks, it is great to have someone share their experiences.
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sincerely yours,
Todd |
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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I was just thinking,and wondered how everyone feels about learning licks.I have a book of licks,and enjoy learning them myself.Just wanted to get some feed back from the forum.I know most people are just going to do what they do,but I'am to old to waste to much time.All input is welcome.
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | | I was just thinking,and wondered how everyone feels about learning licks.I have a book of licks,and enjoy learning them myself.Just wanted to get some feed back from the forum.I know most people are just going to do what they do,but I'am to old to waste to much time.All input is welcome. |
Dean,
Learning licks and how they work together is analogous to learning words strung into sentences when we write or speak (aka "improvise").
Btw, I just noticed in another one of your posts your affinity for George Benson, one of my main guitar mentors. Perfect example of a player who is 100% lick-based (no scales allowed ).
And yours truly? I've transcribed 30 GB solos note-for-note spanning his recordings from '64 through '79. Out of those solos I gleaned over 700 blues licks alone, and over many years have assimilated them and blended them with what I've learned from my other blues and jazz influences. This is exactly what Benson did, and even though he's not a teacher per se who would write out what he learned, it's still the same path and process. In fact he became my instructor because I was willing to do what was required (transcribe) to learn what he could teach me.
This kind of high-quality use of practice time is simply off the charts, because when it comes right down to it, the greatest players in history can become your teachers if you're willing to do the work. When you add the quantity part of the equation, well... you can just imagine the results.
My advice to you is to write your own lick book, based on what you hear, what you pick up from other books, teachers, etc. This ensures that YOU are the one influencing who you become as an improviser and composer. Simply put, we all become what we practice, which is why the discussion of quality study is SO important in the long run.
- Mark
P.S. to Todd...
You're welcome, my friend. Someone once said that you can't keep what you don't share, and I fully subscribe to that philosophy.
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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As always Mark ,thanks for the reply.When my buddy comes down,I will get with him and start the beginning stage of transcribing.you know like Mary had a little man,or the likes.I really like your approach to learning music,and the fact that I am taking a couple of classes ,highlight the differences in approach.Nothing against other teachers ,but their more of a one way street ,instead of how best can this student learn.I am learning so it is all good.I like licks for the same reason,talking in short sentences.
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Dean wrote: | | Nothing against other teachers, but they're more of a one way street, instead of how best can this student learn. |
Dean,
Understood. I've always taken pride in being a "trouble-shooter" as a coach, adapting my knowledge and experience to help players get from Point A to Point B in achieving their specific goals. Sure, there's always something to be said for having an organized game plan, but to me you have to be flexible enough to avoid a "cookie-cutter" approach to any two players. What that takes can be summed up in just one word: communication.
I hope this thread continues, because I have much to share in helping you and others achieve an optimum use of study time. All for now...
- Mark
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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I've had another teaching experience.I was having trouble with a classical piece.It is not really that hard,but I was trying to read it on the fly.Need to improve my reading skills.It just was not working,I was to slow.So in order to keep up,I am in the process of memorizing the piece instead.I still have to read it,but it will be easier to play if I just get it down.I'm just wondering if this is a common approach or if I just need to learn to read faster?
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Don MacArthur
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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From my own experience I have found that trying to improvise via the scale/mode method was a wasted effort. There are tons of books and methods out there. Which one is the right one? One could spend years and years trying to find a method and then years and years trying to memorize it. And when you are done there is still no guarantee that you would sound good. None of the method books worked for me. Only after I started picking up solid phrases from the masters of jazz guitar and then using them in my own solos did my sound drastically improved.
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Don MacArthur wrote: | From my own experience I have found that trying to improvise via the scale/mode method was a wasted effort. There are tons of books and methods out there. Which one is the right one? One could spend years and years trying to find a method and then years and years trying to memorize it. And when you are done there is still no guarantee that you would sound good. None of the method books worked for me. Only after I started picking up solid phrases from the masters of jazz guitar and then using them in my own solos did my sound drastically improved.
Don MacArthur |
Did you pick the phrases and use them in the same songs ,or to use them in any song? I hear you when it comes to just tring to use scales to improvise,I went throught the same thing.I now don't try to look at the scale per say ,but just let my fingers do the walking.I try to just feel the music or hear it in my head and play over it.It is still scale bassed ,but not in scale order ,if that makes sense.As far as the lick book is concerned, I just pick and choose licks and try to make them mine.I will put on a background track or song and play over it,this has help me somewhat ,when someone else is playing ,I will solo over it and have had good responces to it.As usaual ,all input is welcome.
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Solid Phrases vs Scale Variations |
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| Don MacArthur wrote: | | From my own experience I have found that trying to improvise via the scale/mode method was a wasted effort. There are tons of books and methods out there. Which one is the right one? One could spend years and years trying to find a method and then years and years trying to memorize it. And when you are done there is still no guarantee that you would sound good. None of the method books worked for me. Only after I started picking up solid phrases from the masters of jazz guitar and then using them in my own solos did my sound drastically improved. |
Don,
I just saw Dean's reply and had to chime in. From someone who has personally witnessed a powerful transformation and improvement in your playing over the past year or two, there's absolutely no question in my mind that the reason is because you totally surrendered to the notion of basing your vocabulary on those "solid phrases from the masters of jazz guitar" you mentioned. In other words, you saw the same light that those players saw so many years ago, making (to me) your success a foregone conclusion. I'm proud of you and you should be proud of yourself, because you represent a shining example of what can be done if you simply find the right path. Now I can honestly predict that you are well on your way to becoming a formidable player as good as anyone out there.
Dean, my advice to you is to do likewise, but basically avoid scales like the plague and prison that they represent for so many players. You don't have to ignore them altogether, but keep in mind the fact that you become what you practice. Even if you think that you are being creative within the context of a scale, you are MUCH better off being creative with something that truly makes a musical statement as your initial source.
So do this...
Continue reviewing basic scale forms, like major and blues, in all playing positions as a frame of reference on the neck. However, for every FIVE minutes you spend out of every hour doing that, add FIFTY-FIVE minutes playing great licks and melodies from your favorite players and tunes. Not to beat the old mantra drum to death, but you'll be spending the vast majority of your time practicing something that you would actually play for someone. Trust me. Before long what happened for me years ago and for Don recently will begin happening for you, too. All for now...
- Mark
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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Mark,I see what you are saying,and thanks to Don for your statement.I am getting it more and more as this discussion goes along.I have the scale patterns down and do use them for reference,and I did get in that rut.I have started to pull away from that prison.Thanks to all for your input and thoughts and skill.This forum will take me to where I want to be by the years end.Then I will be playing.Man I am digging this forum.For all young people digging means love,not making a hole.Is life good or what !!!!
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Well,I have discovered that learning the piece ,and then reading with it works better for me.I have got the classical piece down ,and it is easier to play.Maybe my reading will catch up.Hearing the song helps ,too.If anyone has a similar experience,please share it.More options to the learning process help me find what works for me.My approach so far has improved a lot sense this topic has been started....but I am still always trying to fine tune it.
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Larry_DC
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Dean, do you do any transcribing? One of the hidden benefits to it is that as you spend time notating other people's music your reading skills will slowly but surely improve. Reading blues used to intimidate me because of all the tuplets. After studying a few of Mark's blues lessons I realized it's not as difficult as it first seemed. I began transcribing blues songs in addition to jazz and now it's a lot easier to read them. The key elements are patience and dogged determination. |
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