Vision Music Forum Index Vision Music
Community Forum
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Quantity vs Quality Practice
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Vision Music Forum Index -> Best Study Practices
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:27 am    Post subject: Quantity vs Quality Practice Reply with quote

Like most people, I only have so much time in a day that I can devote
to studying music, yet I often hear stories of players practicing 5-6
hours a day or more. Does it simply come down to how much time
is invested, or are there ways of accomplishing as much, practicing
fewer hours?Quantity vs Quality that is the question.

Quality : will win out for me,you can set down and practice or play, if you will,for hours.If you just play what you already know ,you have not learned anything.One has to be direct in what they want to accomplish ,playing wise.The easy stuff can not be your daily routine.I would take a hour of specific exercises ,over five or six hours of noodling any day.The hour has to be uninterrupted ,and dedicated to learning something ,you do not know how to do.You can mix it up ,say start off with finger exercises, to warm up.Then some chords ,bouncing back and forth three or four chords ( and pick the ones you have trouble with ),some finger picking, and then end with a song.This is just a example,as you can mix it up to your style of playing,or lack of knowledge.
I can not emphasize enough that the time spent practicing is uninterrupted.Nothing kills a good practice like getting into a grove and someone barging in on you to say something like, I need you to ( fill in blank here ).The mood is gone and for most people it will not come back.The old saying is still true,you get out of something ,what you put into it.The hard stuff is not fun,until you learn how to do it,then it is fun.When you cheat the system in music,you loose,period.Moderate the good with the bad ,and stumble through to being the best guitar player you can be.Most people have a hard time forceing themselfs to do things they do not like,you have to be strong enough to over come that. The more you learn the less stumbling you will do.Even the best have a bad day.Last but not least ,any responses or input is welcome and encouraged.
_________________
What don't kill you makes you stronger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:49 am    Post subject: Re: Quantity vs Quality Practice Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
Most people have a hard time forceing themselfs to do things they do not like,you have to be strong enough to over come that. The more you learn the less stumbling you will do. Even the best have a bad day.Last but not least ,any responses or input is welcome and encouraged.


Dean,

Great subject, my friend. Having taught and observed aspiring players for some 35+ years, this is something that I think about all of the time. I'm glad that you started this thread.

You bring up several interesting points, and I'd also like to hear input from other players on how they view what constitutes quality practice time, because it is at least somewhat subjective depending on a player's goals.

For instance, forcing or disciplining yourself to do something can be a good thing, but only if you're doing the right thing to reach higher ground. If not, then you could make the argument that it's a waste of time, or worse. I've coached players who have actually made FAR greater progress in just 30 minutes a day than some practicing 5-6 hours a day, because if you're doing the wrong thing you can not only regress but even damage your growth process. So in my book it is definitely a question of quality related to each individual's goals and needs, as opposed to the sheer quantity of time spent on the clock.

I've got much more to offer, plus some specific ideas for determining the path and streamlining the time invested in study. Like yourself, I hope that others will add some personal slants and study experiences. All for now...

- Mark
_________________
"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark ,as I have stated before,I am taking some classes to help myself get on track.I am learning to read,and it is coming along.The first mistake people were doing was writing the note letter under the staff note.This is the WRONG thing to do.The only way to read is read.So a part of my practice time is reading note to note.I also have a finger exercise as part of my line up and here it is.Have fun and do not cheat.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff185/rdplayer/scan0001-1.jpg
_________________
What don't kill you makes you stronger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
The first mistake people were doing was writing the note letter under the staff note. This is the WRONG thing to do.The only way to read is read. So a part of my practice time is reading note to note. I also have a finger exercise as part of my line up and here it is. Have fun and do not cheat.


Dean,

Open to suggestions? First of all, "fun" is the bottom line for me as both a student and coach. If I'm not having fun, then I'm doing something wrong and therefore the quality of my practice is questionable.

Early in my career I spent years painstakingly working my way through all kinds of sax, clarinet, violin, and trumpet books to improve my reading in exactly the manner you describe. But to be perfectly honest, I had very little success until I started writing what I was hearing. That's when my ability to read grew by leaps and bounds. I'd venture to say that my sight-reading improved more in two weeks than it had in two years!

Trust me. If you write anything for 5-10 minutes a day for even a few weeks, you'll totally understand what I'm talking about.

Regarding exercises? Again, my obsessive nature drove me to find every exercise under the sun, but my greatest advice is to always make sure that whatever you practice as an "exercise" is also something that you would actually play for someone. In other words, let the music dictate your exercise regimen, not the other way around. All for now...

- Mark
_________________
"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quality wins out every time. For those of us with other commitments, we must wring out every second of solid practice out of every day. I've managed to increase my weekday practice to 3 hours per day, and 5-7 hours on weekend days. I always start out with the current lesson material, then move on to the technical challenges that are ever present: speed and right hand control. Then on to some chord melody and transcribing and there's plenty to do.

If you can be happy with incremental progress practicing can be as much fun as ripping through a blues solo you can play with your eyes closed. Keep the short and long term goals in mind.

Try keeping track of your practice time on a notepad. You'll find yourself wondering what would happen if you just added a few minutes a day. Pretty soon you'll find yourself giving up activities that just don't matter as much as music and your study time will increase.

Many brain scientists agree that it takes about 10,000 hours of quality practice to become an expert at anything that requires a lot of skill, be it music, sports, whatever. Time's a wastin'!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Dean wrote:
The first mistake people were doing was writing the note letter under the staff note. This is the WRONG thing to do.The only way to read is read. So a part of my practice time is reading note to note. I also have a finger exercise as part of my line up and here it is. Have fun and do not cheat.


Dean,

Open to suggestions? First of all, "fun" is the bottom line for me as both a student and coach. If I'm not having fun, then I'm doing something wrong and therefore the quality of my practice is questionable.

Early in my career I spent years painstakingly working my way through all kinds of sax, clarinet, violin, and trumpet books to improve my reading in exactly the manner you describe. But to be perfectly honest, I had very little success until I started writing what I was hearing. That's when my ability to read grew by leaps and bounds. I'd venture to say that my sight-reading improved more in two weeks than it had in two years!

Trust me. If you write anything for 5-10 minutes a day for even a few weeks, you'll totally understand what I'm talking about.

Regarding exercises? Again, my obsessive nature drove me to find every exercise under the sun, but my greatest advice is to always make sure that whatever you practice as an "exercise" is also something that you would actually play for someone. In other words, let the music dictate your exercise regimen, not the other way around. All for now...

- Mark


Mark ,I hear you and have to say ,your approach makes a lot of sense to me.I like it so much ,it will now become part of my routine.It's like a two for one deal.If I read you right ,find a piece that has the exercise in it ,there by getting the benefit of both.The writing part ,also make perfect sense ,too.Thanks for the advice,it has opened my eyes to a different approach,a straighter line to learning.Combining two exercises into one.
_________________
What don't kill you makes you stronger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: Quality vs Quantity Reply with quote

Quality wins for me. Recently, after seeing Andreas Oberg play and scat,
1) i will sing a line that i like (e.g., parker line out of the omni book) or off a cd and go over it again if i miss a note.
2) i incorporate the line into other keys and songs. (opening of donna lee can sound good for "take the a train", "blues for alice").
3) i go back to the original line and key and create a new line based off the original.
_________________
sincerely yours,

Todd
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:36 am    Post subject: Re: Quality vs Quantity Reply with quote

thaydon wrote:
Quality wins for me. Recently, after seeing Andreas Oberg play and scat,
1) i will sing a line that i like (e.g., parker line out of the omni book) or off a cd and go over it again if i miss a note.
2) i incorporate the line into other keys and songs. (opening of donna lee can sound good for "take the a train", "blues for alice").
3) i go back to the original line and key and create a new line based off the original.


Todd,

Good thoughts and nice seeing you over here. I like what both you and Larry are saying regarding what you consider valuable practice, because this is more than just agreeing that quality trumps quantity. The bigger question becomes what constitutes "quality" relative to our goals.

Not to harp on one of my educational pet peeves, but this is where so many are led astray by being mistakenly convinced that something that might be considered abstract has inherent value (e.g. excessive scale practice, hand exercises, etc). As a coach, the "Only practice something that you would play for someone" mantra can really succeed in narrowing the field of choices and keeping things in focus. Of course, I'd be the first to admit that there are exceptions to every rule and mantra, but at least it forces an aspiring player to think about how they're spending their precious time, and adjust the percentages accordingly.

With that in mind, what you just described, at least in my opinion, is an excellent example of quality study based on something that you would indeed play for someone, so the creativity that springs from that pursuit is potentially just as strong. And btw, I think you know that I LOVE to quote well-known licks and head segments in my solos and compositions. Wink

Larry, great suggestion regarding journaling your practice time, something that I've preached about for many years. It's even more valuable once the quality factor is established, because then the quantity really does become significant.

And Dean, glad that you took to my suggestions. I'm sometimes a bit reluctant and wary about being perceived as lecturing, because it's common for all of us to have guarded belief systems established for how we are spending our time and energy. All for now...

- Mark
_________________
"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: Quality vs Quantity Reply with quote

- Mark[/quote]
Dean, glad that you took to my suggestions. I'm sometimes a bit reluctant and wary about being perceived as lecturing, because it's common for all of us to have guarded belief systems established for how we are spending our time and energy. All for now...

The funny thing,Mark...I kind of knew that already,but every time I would get around a teacher it would be, follow these steps.So I just started second guessing myself.I have been teaching myself for awhile.I just went into it head first.I did what you ascribe to ,just had fun.I did not care what anyone thought ,it was for me only.I do not get a lot of feed back ,so it is hard to know where I am ,but what feed back I get has been positive.
_________________
What don't kill you makes you stronger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it is probably for another thread, but I always work on tone when practicing.To me it goes hand in hand.What are the thoughts of others on this?
_________________
What don't kill you makes you stronger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
I know it is probably for another thread, but I always work on tone when practicing.To me it goes hand in hand.What are the thoughts of others on this?


Dean,

I've never consciously worked on my tone, but I believe that improvement lies in developing your ear through related/superior study. For instance, if you choose a mentor known for great tone, then spend time on a regular basis not only listening but playing along with what you're learning, your ear won't be satisfied until you're getting similar results. Everything starts to rub off on you, including the tone quality.

Honestly, I think that particular use of study time trumps the instrument being played, the amp, strings, pick, etc, etc. All of those components do count for something, but in the long run your ear will find a way to get there. I should also mention that frequent recording (another quality study area) helps immensely when it comes to tone. All for now...

- Mark
_________________
"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'am looking forward to the recording phase,so I can really get a sence of where I am at.That has to be one of the top ways of get to know your improvement or lack of.
_________________
What don't kill you makes you stronger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think "quality" practice is a personal thing. My idea of quality time may be different than somebody elses. I have made some great break throughs playing while watching the news.

Dave
_________________
The hippest note you can play is a rest.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
I think "quality" practice is a personal thing. My idea of quality time may be different than somebody elses. I have made some great break throughs playing while watching the news.

Dave


Hey Dave, were you playing blues at the time?
_________________
What don't kill you makes you stronger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
I think "quality" practice is a personal thing. My idea of quality time may be different than somebody elses. I have made some great break throughs playing while watching the news.


Dave,

I agree that quality practice could be considered a subjective issue, at least from a personal player's standpoint, but I also think it has little to do with whether you're watching the news while practicing or not.

As an educator, I believe that what's far more important is "what" is being practiced, and to me that issue radically effects the quality of study. As I've said countless times, the #1 goal should be to only practice something that you would actually PLAY for someone.

While that philosophy may seem logical to some and extreme to others, the truth is that the majority of aspiring players I've met over the years believe what they've been told about what constitutes quality practice, but upon further examination what they're practicing doesn't measure up to my stated mantra. Therefore the quality is not only severely lacking, but sometimes it's a total waste of valuable time.

For instance, if your aspirations are high as a jazz improviser and you're sitting in front of the tube playing scales for long periods, I'd call that a waste of time. On the other hand, if you're playing bebop heads and great jazz licks from great players instead, I'd call that high-quality study. No one wants to hear scales. Everyone wants to hear real music. This is just one small example of what I'm talking about in having your practice reflect what you'd play for someone. On top of that, it's exactly what Wes, Pass, Benson, and so many other great jazz guitarists did to achieve their goals. All for now...

- Mark
_________________
"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Vision Music Forum Index -> Best Study Practices All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group