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Diminished Door
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:21 am    Post subject: Diminished Door Reply with quote

Fretboard Friends,

Most of us are familiar with the diminished chord and it being one note away from a pure dom7 chord. I'm curious how others use this form for soloing. It would be great to get some "sound" advice.
bp
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: Diminished Door Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
Most of us are familiar with the diminished chord and it being one note away from a pure dom7 chord. I'm curious how others use this form for soloing. It would be great to get some "sound" advice.


Bob,

Love the subject! So much lurks under the diminished hood, despite the fact that it is typically associated with the more esoteric side of jazz and bebop (more on that later).

First of all, you're absolutely right about the "one note away" connection with the family of dom7 chords, because lower any one of the four tones in a diminished voicing and it becomes the root of a simple 7th chord. In a nutshell that explains the enharmonic relationship between a C#dim7 and a C7b9. In fact, you could make the case that knowing the primary diminished voicings spawns most of the dom7 guitar voicings.

But enough "classroom theory" rhetoric. Wink Let's talk application to the most basic of situations, a blues. One of my absolute favorite things to do as a soloist or rhythm guitarist is to get on my upper-string set and use these voicings over the IV chord, in conjunction with 9th and 13th chords. Why? Because you automatically get some very hip, key-oriented blue notes based on the key. For instance, when you're playing a blues in G and the band hits the C7 chord, if you use C#dim7 (aka C7b9) voicings, the melody notes you pick up are G, Bb, Db, and E. That's the root, b3, b7 and 6th of the key, four $$ notes for sure.

To hear what I'm talking about in an excerpt from my "Made for Suede" swing blues original, click here. Starts with a pickup into one 12-bar chorus, but listen carefully at about 12 seconds into the clip to hear the diminished chord punches at bar six, resolving back home at bar seven. Great fun and so many possibilities! All for now...

- Mark
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Diminished Door Reply with quote

Mark,

it's so cool to hear that IV chord section with the "inside skinny". I'll look over the "code" later in the day, I appreciate the reply for sure.

bp
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:23 pm    Post subject: Diminished Ideas Reply with quote

Well, not a lot of action on this topic which surprises me because, even though I don't like long lines of diminished patterns, except Grant Giesman(sp) he uses them tastefully, and Dan Balmer's exceptional tune "The Finisher" where he plays this 3 octave diminished line as a turn around, I think the moveability of the diminished pattern is fascinating.

Here is a link to a video I did on an intro into the subject...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gA8FGQFatWU

bp
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Mark
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Diminished Ideas Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
Well, not a lot of action on this topic which surprises me because, even though I don't like long lines of diminished patterns, except Grant Giesman(sp) he uses them tastefully, and Dan Balmer's exceptional tune "The Finisher" where he plays this 3 octave diminished line as a turn around, I think the moveability of the diminished pattern is fascinating.


Bob,

Cool video and thoughts on using diminished ideas, my friend. Thanks! Take a look at the following brief excerpt from my "Modal Magic" lick series:



This diminished move over a stationary minor situation (e.g. So What, Impressions, etc) is something that I picked up from pianist Bill Evans, then modified it for jazz guitar.

Handle all indicated tab slides with the left-hand index finger, and note how gracefully (and quickly) you can execute this idea. Also observe the way the pick-up notes and resolution are on the inside harmonically, so the line weaves from inside to outside (dim) and back to inside again. The final Dm7sus chord caps it off and gives it a modal touch, although if you use something like a C6/9 or Cmaj7 instead, you'll hear how the line can also work over a G7alt, suggesting b5, b9, and #9 in resolving from V (G) to I (C). Hope you enjoy it. More to follow...

- Mark
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: diminished lick Reply with quote

That's a very nice phrase. Very soft. You know I screwed up reading the chord at the end and ended up with a D#minor and that was even cool:)

bp
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Mark
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Diminished & Fourths Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
That's a very nice phrase. Very soft. You know I screwed up reading the chord at the end and ended up with a D#minor and that was even cool:)


Bob,

One of the things I find fascinating about diminished concepts, beyond the connection to blues, is the possible combinations with intervals. This is something that stems from many years of studying and transcribing keyboard and horn players.

With that in mind, here's another excerpt from the same series:



Same harmonic scenario and potential, but this one stacks a fourth on each note of a diminished chord, so it moves up or down in minor thirds. For the most part I use partial barring with the left-hand first and fourth fingers, at least on the lower string sets.

Btw, you can invert the order of fourths (e.g. all up, all down, up & down as shown, or down & up). Great for fusion and funk solos and parts when you want to get a little bit outside. All for now...

- Mark
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

I have known about the concept of using diminished tones over stationary 7th chords. But I did not connect the idea with minor 7th chords until now. Thanks for opening my eyes to another useful trick.

Don
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:08 am    Post subject: Diminished Door Reply with quote

Bob and Mark;

thanks for starting and keeping this thread going, up until now I had no idea on how to use diminished sounds over static harmonies. it is much appreciated.
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Todd
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:47 am    Post subject: Diminished Returns Reply with quote

Todd,

Man, everytime I share something I get back more than I put out. Someone will chime in, I'll get a phone call, The Coach will unleash his locker...

Stay tuned. I found something today that I have to share via video. I don't think I can get it posted until Friday though...

bp
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:46 pm    Post subject: Diminished Door Reply with quote

Great for fusion and funk solos and parts when you want to get a little bit outside

Mark,

Could you explain your comment above a bit more?
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Todd
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Mark
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Diminished Door Reply with quote

thaydon wrote:
Could you explain your comment above a bit more?


Todd,

Sure thing. Fusion is often associated with solos and melodies that involve some dissonance, or "outside the harmony" concepts. How much is up to the player or composer. You know, it could be just a touch here and there, mixed with blues and inside work, or it could be just the opposite.

A perfect recorded example would be a tune like "Full Compass" (Bad Benson - CTI). While George's solo is the epitome of funky, syncopated blues all the way, Ronnie Foster's keyboard solo is almost 100% on the outside edge, using an abundance of ideas based on 4th intervals.

It just so happens that a symmetrical form like diminished combines very well with that interval, spawning numerous line possibilities. Even though I like to consider myself a blues-oriented player first and foremost, my quest has always been to leave no stones unturned in trying to understand how so many great players acquired their language vocabulary. Not surprisingly, horn and keyboard players in general are pretty far advanced as jazz improvisers. I'd say that over 90% of what I've learned in the outside arena comes from studying them. Time permitting, I'll try to get more examples uploaded. It's a fascinating subject that I've invested considerable time in over the years.

- Mark
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 5:06 am    Post subject: Diminished Returns Reply with quote

This topic is doing something for me! Hey check this simple application of applied observation... was that poetic or just poor English?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC-hSgUBn3Q
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Mark
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: Diminished Returns Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
This topic is doing something for me! Hey check this simple application of applied observation... was that poetic or just poor English?


Bob,

I like the poetry, buddy. Laughing Okay, I just checked out your video and diminished thoughts, so I'll give you a little bit of feedback:

When you move from that A7 with the 3rd (C#) in the melody to the D7b9 (aka diminished) with a C melody in a slow blues context, the first thing that strikes me is the distinct resemblance to Jimi's classic "Red House" intro. As a matter of fact, lay some heavy vibrato on those top three strings and pick the notes from 1st to 3rd string in successive triplets and that's exactly what you've got.

However, the leap to moving from A dom blues to Ab due to the chromatic shift sounds logical in theory but doesn't have nearly as much pure blues appeal to my ear. Instead I hear movement between A dom blues and elements of A minor blues over the second chord, because the C is the b3 of A, the F# is that sweet 6th that B.B. King loves to ride, and the Eb is the b5. It's one of my favorite blues approaches in going from major to minor over I and IV, whether the diminished is present or not.

The Wes theme that you were humming is his epic "West Coast Blues," but that chord movement is a whole-step down (Bb7 to Ab7) as opposed to a half-step. If you were to use that famous lick, you could experiment by either modifying the theme from the 3rd to the b3rd, or transposing the entire deal to the key of the IV chord. Try that against the same pair of chords used in your video and you might hear a more effective (and less theoretical) result in achieving maximum blues potential.

But hey... it's all good in the long run, and I really applaud your sense of exploration in trying out different approaches. Thanks for sharing...

- Mark
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:27 am    Post subject: Diminished Returns Reply with quote

Ah yes West Coast Blues. Boy am I bad with names. I was with a friend the other night watching another friend play and in comes this gal bass player, whom I've played with a million times! I couldn't remember her name and it was getting dangerously close to having to introduce both friends to each other, so I stepped out and called another friend to ask what what's her name was... oh boy.

But. Mark thanks so much for your time and effort. And with the utmost respect I am going to dink around with these ideas keeping your words in mind. Larry Carlton steps down a half step for color quite a bit, as does Earl Klugh. AND (is there a word limit looming) once again, the winner is yours truly for sort of being embarrassed (great way to learn) and eliciting these lessons from the coach!
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