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Diminished Door
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:37 am    Post subject: Re: Diminished Returns Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
Mark thanks so much for your time and effort. And with the utmost respect I am going to dink around with these ideas keeping your words in mind. Larry Carlton steps down a half step for color quite a bit, as does Earl Klugh. AND (is there a word limit looming) once again, the winner is yours truly for sort of being embarrassed (great way to learn) and eliciting these lessons from the coach!


Bob,

No problem. So much of what we share is subjective, my friend. For instance, what you played and discussed in that video immediately made me contemplate the half-step down concept (chromatic "side-slipping") in that context. Like I said, it's all positive. There is no right or wrong way if it sounds good, eh? Wink

- Mark
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a great thread. We could call it "Enhancing by diminishing" and really confuse people. There are some good ideas here. I remember when I first grasped the concept of subbing a 7th with the diminished a half step up. I thought I had it nailed until I saw a chart that showed a G7dim subbing for the G7. I thought, what is going on here??? I examined the notes and realized that in that context it was a G13#9b5 without the 3rd. So to paraphrase Bob's video, its the SOUND that's important, not the name of the scale.
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Mark
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:14 am    Post subject: Behind the Diminished Door Reply with quote

Larry_DC wrote:
What a great thread. We could call it "Enhancing by diminishing" and really confuse people.


Larry,

Good one! Laughing Seriously, here are some additional diminished thoughts...

Most of my students know that my improvising approach is "sound-based" (as opposed to scale-based). However, when I want to step outside in a minor context, diminished ideas can be very useful at times, and even more so if seamlessly blended with the traditional blues and jazz language. Why? Because there's an inherent inside/outside nature involved with the diminished form, therefore anything that stems from the scale or chord tones retains the same personality.

For instance, consider the symmetrical (whole-step/half-step) tones of a D diminished scale relevant to the Dm7 chord family: D E F G Ab A# B Db (D). Note how the first four tones are like any other linear minor sequence, but how the next four tones step outside (Ab minor) before returning to D. If applied to a static Dm7 in a modal situation, you weave in and out of the harmony.

Next ask yourself how the same group of notes relates to a G7? When you think of G as the root, you get the 5, 6/13, b7, b9, #9, 3, and b5. In other words, the same blend of inside to outside and back, but the hip thing is that you're starting on the 5th (D) and using the Pat Martino minor substitution concept. Btw, you can even use the sequence as a short II-V and capture the "Bird Magic" effect in thinking Dm7 and Abm7. As a test, play the first four notes, then strike a Dm7 chord. Now play the next four notes followed by a G7 (or Db7) chord, then resolve to the octave D and play a Cmaj9 chord to hear the final result.

Of course, where the real fun lies is in exploring all of the cool variations that keyboard and horn players were doing decades ago, then blending it with your existing vocabulary. I've been doing that for many years.

Okay, am I losing anyone yet? Wink

- Mark
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:10 am    Post subject: Diminished Returns Reply with quote

Mark the only thing that lost me in all that was my having to go on location and coming back to a stack of stuff. BUT, glad to be back. Hey, I'm ignorant to the Pat Martino minor sub module.

But the weaving in and out idea always is intriguing. Tension release...

bp
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Diminishing Returns Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
But the weaving in and out idea always is intriguing. Tension release...


Bob,

For starters, Martino explained in his "Linear Expressions" preface that he always thinks minor and tweaks his vocabulary according to the chord progression at hand. That statement really struck me at the time, because I had spent a lot of time transcribing his work from the seventies and had come to the same conclusion. "Light bulb" moment for me back then. Wink

Okay, speaking of "weaving in and out," late last night I recorded one idea using diminished over Freddie Hubbard's "Little Sunflower" modal groove in Dm, so I transcribed the essence of it as part of my recent "Minor Connections" series to share with you guys. Take a look:



Note how the line starts on the inside and typical of a Bird cliché, but how it then segues into a classic horn player's diminished sequence, and finally settles back into some syncopations off the "just add water" D minor pentatonic. The first time I got turned on to these diminished licks was over thirty years ago, when I was a guitar "rookie" taking lessons from pianist Tom Coster (Santana) at his San Bruno home in the SF Bay Area.

To hear the recording, click here. Starts with some string bends (yes, some jazz guitarists DO bend strings Laughing ) to set the stage, followed by a few beats worth of inside work prefacing the notation above. Hope you dig it! All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! This opens some doors. I found an easy way to think of this.

1) The ii-7 and vii-7b5 are often (inside sounding) substitutes for the V7.
2) Playing a diminished scale starting 1/2 step above the root of a dominant 7 creates cool sounds (b9, b3, 3, #11, 5, 13, b7, R)
3) The same notes occur when playing a diminshed scale off of the root of the ii-7 or the vii-7b5!
4) These notes are almost the same as when you play a melodic minor 1/2 step above the V7, except, in this case you get a b13 instead of a natural 13!

Thinking of these four concepts makes the theory a lot easier to contain. So you don't have to remember 4 scales (in the key of C: D diminshed, Ab diminshed, B diminished, and Ab melodic minor), because, with the exception of the melodic minor, they are enharmonic equivalents. And the melodic minor only differs by one note!
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Diminished Returns Reply with quote

Oh man Mark, we can stop right here as far as I'm concerned. This is so cool. I've got to focus on this for a while. Thanks a mil for sharing that one!
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Diminished Door Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Let's talk application to the most basic of situations, a blues. One of my absolute favorite things to do as a soloist or rhythm guitarist is to get on my upper-string set and use these voicings over the IV chord, in conjunction with 9th and 13th chords. Why? Because you automatically get some very hip, key-oriented blue notes based on the key. For instance, when you're playing a blues in G and the band hits the C7 chord, if you use C#dim7 (aka C7b9) voicings, the melody notes you pick up are G, Bb, Db, and E. That's the root, b3, b7 and 6th of the key, four $$ notes for sure.


Interesting - I have been playing C# over C7 in G blues "all my life" Wink
just because it sounds funky - never thought about t being a doorway
to diminished ideas.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Minor Connections Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Wow! This opens some doors. I found an easy way to think of this.


Len,

Good to hear that, and thanks for sharing your diminished thoughts. While it's good to understand the underlying theory, the one thing I should bring to the surface is the fact that I'm not thinking about the relationship to the G7 at all. My harmonic approach is partially summed up in the Minor Connections title of this series, because this is all about connecting minor ideas under one umbrella (D minor), then using it "as is" or superimposing it a la Pat Martino over the situation at hand.

For instance, minus the opening string bends, you could lay all of the rest over the first four bars of something like All Blues (in G) by Miles Davis and it would work like a charm. Try it out once you have it down.

Bottom line? When I encounter a G7 and want to get melodic over it, either inside or outside, I'm thinking D minor. It all relates to core jazz language and the fact that superimposing minor ideas over dominant situations is more appealing to my ear and easier on my mind. Wink

Btw, the other meaning of the series title deals with making physical connections on the fingerboard and stringing longer phrases together, typically double-timed but still based in solid language (no fluff). My recent Choplicity groove original sums up some of my progress to date.

- Mark
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Diminished Door Reply with quote

Bob Parsons wrote:
Fretboard Friends,

Most of us are familiar with the diminished chord and it being one note away from a pure dom7 chord. I'm curious how others use this form for soloing. It would be great to get some "sound" advice.
bp


I posted this one a while ago:
--------------------------------------------------------
I am working thru Bird's Magic lesson now. One of the trick that Mark
demonstrates is creating nice altered lines for the V chord by simply
shifting "ii" lick by minor third then another one.
So for example in the key of C you would play Dm9 lick then repeat
it over G7 shifted by minor third to Fm9 or another one to Abm9.

When I was taking lesson from my previous teacher he offered following
approach to such substitutions.

All harmony should be thought in a functional way - tension and release
- moving from tonic to dominant and back to tonic.

So chords in a progression should always be thought and played over
taking into account their function - for example Dm7 and G7 are not
separate entities as far as choices of notes - but more by their function
in progression.

To generalize it further one can think of "partner" chord groups eg.
G7, Dm7, Fmaj7, Bmin7b5 and think in terms of groups rather than
specific scales. Over G7 one can play Dm7 lick - or in scale lingo
D-dorian.

Now if we can approach G7 substitutions as follows:
any time dom7 function resolves to tonic it can be
substituted by diminished chord half step higher: G7->G#dim7

Now diminished chords minor third apart are equivalent:
G#dim7 = Bdim7 = Ddim7 = Fdim7

So if we align original dominant chord and his partner group we get:
G#dim7 -> G7, Dm7, Fmaj7, Bmin7b5
Bdim7 -> Bb7, Fm7, Abmaj7, Dmin7b5
Ddim7 -> Db7, Abmin7, Bmaj7, Fmin7b5
Fdim7 -> E7, Bmin7, Dmaj7, G#min7b5

So we see that G7 and Db7 (and by extension eg. Abmin7 arpeggio)
are connected - we reconstructed tritone substitution with altered
tones Ab = b9, Db = #11
Other rows may provide different type of substitution (alteration)
for the G7 dominant chord:
eg E7 gives G# = b9 and E = 13
and Bb7 gives G# = b9 and Bb = #9

To summarize - over G7 one can play Dm7, Fm7 and Abm7 licks.

I have to say I learned it logically first time around but only after working
through example in Mark's lesson I started applying it to create ii-V-I
lines. That is really simple and effective trick to at least get started on
creating good sounding lines. I was told before that one should try to
create or memorize one ii-V-I line every day. That Dm7->Fm7/Abm7
tricks makes it MUCH easier.
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don and Mark, thanks for the cool lessons.Man ,I thank I'am going on over load in such a great way.This is the best players site bar none.Just a great thread.Keep it coming.
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, I like lots!!! Where can I find more of these very cool lines?

Don MacArthur
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: "All Blues" (Meets Diminished) Reply with quote

Hey Guys,

Thought you might get a kick out of a little All Blues work-in-progress solo experiment. Just for fun, I took the exact same diminished phrase that I shared with you in a recent post and used it as part of the "front end" of a two-chorus solo over Miles' classic blues progression.

The first time the feel was latin ("Little Sunflower") and the harmony was D minor. However, this time the situation is G dominant, so this is a solid example of how you can superimpose inside or outside minor ideas over a dom 7th situation. What follows the opening theme is a mix of standard blues licks, double-stops, and a little more D minor over G7 double-timing. Hope you enjoy it!

- Mark
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice!
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Todd
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Bob Parsons



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Location: Anchorage, AK

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:35 pm    Post subject: diminished Returns Reply with quote

Geez Louise guys, when I first posted this question, I had no idea that it would cost me so much time to try and keep up! Smile Mark posted the latest with his focus on the diminished run that landed so nicely on the V chord, but I dinked around all night on the lead in to the dminor chord -- and didn't even get to the diminished!

I gotta say thanks. AND Woland, I would love to hear some ideas from what you just posted...

bp
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