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Double Timing
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:47 am    Post subject: Double Timing Reply with quote

In an early LBM, Mark talks about how double timing can take place after a player has achieved a high level of proficiency. I was wondering if any one has ideas on how to begin to achieve this level of proficiency.
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Todd
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What has helped me is to start SLOW. I mean real slow. If you know where the top end of your comfort zone is whack it by a third. Say you are comfortable with eighth notes up to about 210 beats per minute. I would play the practice song at 70 bpm. I play it for a long time at that slow tempo.

I found that when I pushed the tempo I started having timing problems and weak lines. The attempt at speed was overriding the things that mattered.

Dave
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:52 pm    Post subject: Double timing Reply with quote

Dave,

that is really good advice.
thanks!
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Last edited by thaydon on Sat May 17, 2008 2:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Playing Slow/Fast Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
What has helped me is to start SLOW. I mean real slow. If you know where the top end of your comfort zone is whack it by a third. Say you are comfortable with eighth notes up to about 210 beats per minute. I would play the practice song at 70 bpm. I play it for a long time at that slow tempo.

I found that when I pushed the tempo I started having timing problems and weak lines. The attempt at speed was overriding the things that mattered.


Dave,

Yes, I agree with Todd regarding your excellent advice. This is the same "slow-before-fast" thing that Henry (Johnson) preaches about, and he obviously has no problem when it comes to double-timing at any tempo.

However, the one thing I would add is that there is a physical element involved, because even if you have great harmonic ideas under your belt, your chops can fall apart if you don't find the most effortless way to execute them on the neck. For me it's been an ongoing effort to string longer phrases together, not because I don't hear them but because my technical approach was lacking. As a result I would cover my shortcomings with good phrasing, plus "taking a breath" like a good horn player (never a bad thing when it comes to guitarists Wink ).

Fortunately, I've seen great progress in recent months, but it took a concerted effort to re-think my language vocabulary with double-timing and tempo in mind. The recent "Minor Connnections" series documents my growth, and it's been very encouraging to hit higher plateaus that I thought were far and few in between after so many years of playing.

- Mark
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:22 am    Post subject: Re: Double timing Reply with quote

Quote:
if you don't find the most effortless way to execute them on the neck.


So perhaps it would be easier to start off higher on the fret board and on the upper string set using slurs, hammer ons and pulls offs.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Double Timing Reply with quote

Todd wrote:
So perhaps it would be easier to start off higher on the fret board and on the upper string set using slurs, hammer ons and pulls offs.


Todd,

Not necessarily, my friend. You can start low (1st fret low E string) or high (15th fret high E string) or anywhere in between. The challenge for me has been finding specific pivot points that allow me to gracefully move through the positions and octaves. If you listen to my "Choplicity" solo at the MGS page you'll hear that some of the longer phrases are spanning quite a range on the neck. However, you'll also note that I'm not double-timing throughout the entire solo, but blending those long pasages with blues figures and syncopated phrasing.

It's not my goal to play endless streams of notes like some players (whom I will refrain from mentioning Wink ), but to at least have the ability to physically do it when I hear it while avoiding "fluff" and maintaining core language. All for now...

- Mark
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thaydon



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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject: Double timing Reply with quote

Ok, I gave Choplicity a listening and I hear what you are talking about. I also listened to My Masquerade and there is double timing on the lower string sets on the Bflat 7th chord on some chorus?

thanks
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Latin & Double-Timing Reply with quote

Todd wrote:
Ok, I gave Choplicity a listening and I hear what you are talking about. I also listened to My Masquerade and there is double timing on the lower string sets on the Bflat 7th chord on some chorus?


Todd,

Yes, both of those tracks employ a lot of DT in vamp situations. Choplicity is just a Dm9 groove and Masquerade is Fm9 to Bb13, so I'm pretty much using a mix of F minor jazz and blues language, varying the phrasing and rhythms.

Although you and others may have already heard this unreleased track, check out just the Bossa Solo portion of my latest "How Insensitive" (Jobim) rendition, recorded earlier this year. Unlike the other tracks, this one features an abundance of jazz changes, but the approach is similar with regards to mixing the phrasing and harmonic ideas. I plan to transcribe this one for both the MGS series and the LBM program. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark said:


Quote:
However, you'll also note that I'm not double-timing throughout the entire solo, but blending those long pasages with blues figures and syncopated phrasing.

It's not my goal to play endless streams of notes like some players (whom I will refrain from mentioning ), but to at least have the ability to physically do it when I hear it while avoiding "fluff" and maintaining core language. All for now...


Mark, from this it sounds like you are referring to what classical guitarists call "speed bursts" -- short, fast phrases, which are surrounded by slower phrases (during which you can regroup, refocus, and relax).

Do you recommend working speed bursts up to tempo gradually, or is it better to not worry about speed, but just play musically with whatever speed you have?
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Mark
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Speed Bursts Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Mark, from this it sounds like you are referring to what classical guitarists call "speed bursts" -- short, fast phrases, which are surrounded by slower phrases (during which you can regroup, refocus, and relax).

Do you recommend working speed bursts up to tempo gradually, or is it better to not worry about speed, but just play musically with whatever speed you have?


Len,

Interesting assessment, although I really haven't thought about it in that conscious a manner. However, there is something to be said for variance in speed and overall note density as a powerful dynamic in a solo. Using a simple slow blues as an example, it's a really good idea to vary the speed, like one sustained pitch or string bend followed by a quicker run of notes. When you listen to a good blues player, whether it be a Jimi Hendrix, SRV, B.B. King, George Benson, Robben Ford or Kenny Burrell, you'll hear that speed balance in the way that they phrase. For me, it became a natural extension from listening and playing along with them.

Regardless of the terminology, you want to challenge yourself to bring your core jazz and blues language up to speed, and then let your ear and "automatic pilot" take over when you actually improvise. Til next time...

- Mark
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before I post the following, let me say that I am not speed-driven. But I have been left in the dust many times trying to play musically at fast tempos. So I think it's necessary to have some speed to play a lot of repetoire -- especially things like rythm changes.

In my continuing quest for speed, here are the things that I have found helpful:

a) it is good to use a memorized solo.
b) good fingerings are critical. Slurs and slides are great.
c) nail the solo at a slow tempo
d) praciticing slow is important, because you can work on minimizing movement at a slow tempo. Don't play fast until you can play at all speeds with minimum movement (practice makes permanent)
e) I find it extremely helpful to play with the metronome set to one beat per measure -- this makes it feel slower and keeps the brain working
f) keep a journal with speeds achieved for a given solo over time
g) do not tense up as you increase speed
h) make sure parts are firmly in your muscle memory before you expect speed
i) alternate playing with a metronome and a backing track -- I find this helpful for psychological reasons -- the metronome beating once a measure makes it feel slower; the backing track allows you to focus on notes and not timing
j) use the "two steps forward, one step back technique." In other words, if you are trying to play at 160, work for a while at 170. Then back off to 160. It will feel slow at 160.

I'd like to hear what others think. These are just the things I've heard and applied with success. I'm sure there are lots of other ways to build speed.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
In my continuing quest for speed, here are the things that I have found helpful...

I'd like to hear what others think. These are just the things I've heard and applied with success. I'm sure there are lots of other ways to build speed.


Len,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the subject. If I were to cite one thing that has helped me the most it would be expanding the way I see the left hand in order to improve both the speed and grace factors. In retrospect, the problems I had in the past stemmed from trying to force my picking hand (or RH fingers) to accommodate my fretting hand, when it should have been the other way around. Consider the fact that Wes had no problems with speed in using successive downstrokes with his thumb, and that Benson (Montgomery disciple) modeled his picking approach after Wes in using primarily downstrokes. All of that points to the left hand as the primary focal point, not the right.

So, yes.. in the spirit of Wes, GB, and others, consider slurs on as many occasions as possible and explore quick, violin-like LH shifts instead of trying to play a passage in one given position. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

Quote:
Consider the fact that Wes had no problems with speed in using successive downstrokes with his thumb, and that Benson (Montgomery disciple) modeled his picking approach after Wes in using primarily downstrokes.


After transcribing a fair amount of Wes, is that I can't even do what he does with his thumb up to speed using any possible picking pattern! Very Happy
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
After transcribing a fair amount of Wes, is that I can't even do what he does with his thumb up to speed using any possible picking pattern! Very Happy


Len,

Understood and after all, Wes broke the mold on the jazz guitar front. But what I can tell you is that there are things that I couldn't do with my thumb one year ago at 200 bpm that I can now do close to 300 bpm, and it all has to do with the left hand. I had given up the notion of ramping up the speed until I hung out and jammed with Henry Johnson a year ago. When I saw it being done as well as heard it, I realized what I needed to do and starting seeing major progress within a matter of weeks.

The side benefit is that it also improved my picking and gave me a deeper understanding of what players like HJ and Benson are doing to achieve their fluid sound. I'm not trying to be just like them technically, but to see progress of any kind is gratifying and rewarding, to say the least. Til next time...

- Mark
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark said:

Quote:
it all has to do with the left hand.


Yes, I've noticed that when I play heads using your fingerings, they are easier to play fast. Another thing I'm trying to do is to avoid awkward language in model solos for fast tunes.

One technique I find very helpful is the rake. I would add that to slurs and slides as a preferred speed technique.
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