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What Speed Should You Play With Recordings At?

 
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: What Speed Should You Play With Recordings At? Reply with quote

Software like Transcribe! is helpful in many ways. I particularly appreciate its usefulness in adjusting tempo when I play along with CDs.

I've thought a lot about whether to play with recordings at slow tempos or at speed. I can think of a lot of reasons to play slow: capturing subtlety, playing clean, understanding what you are playing, etc., but only a few to play at tempo.

I think playing at tempo gives you the following: capturing vibrato speed (especially in the blues, which is a hard concept to grasp on a relative basis), getting the proper swing rhythm (I've noticed from transcribing that fast tempos are closer to straight eights than slow tempos are in swing tunes), working up the ability to use the idea in performance at tempo, and getting a macro feel for the solo.

I'd be interested in learning what others think are the pros and cons of each.
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always transcribe at slow speed. For me it's the best way to pick up every nuance of timing and expression and to study the logic of the progression. But once I've got it I always try to ramp up to the recorded speed for the technical exercise. Not that success comes quickly. I've been practicing a particular Bird solo for about a year now and I'm just approaching the tempo.
But having practiced all this time I am honed in one every note and dynamic.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Larry. Very logical response. BTW, after working on a solo for awhile, I've also found it helpful to practice the lines with a metronome. I am sometimes surprised by the improvements I've made when I go back to playing with the CD. It also has a tendency to highlight (by their absence) the cues I was picking up from the CD (notably, bass and drum tracks, especially drum fills).
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What Speed Should You Play With Recordings At? Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
I think playing at tempo gives you the following: capturing vibrato speed (especially in the blues, which is a hard concept to grasp on a relative basis), getting the proper swing rhythm (I've noticed from transcribing that fast tempos are closer to straight eights than slow tempos are in swing tunes), working up the ability to use the idea in performance at tempo, and getting a macro feel for the solo.

I'd be interested in learning what others think are the pros and cons of each.


Len,

I just read Larry's reply. Good thoughts from both of you. I go back and forth between full speed and half speed, the former for capturing the true essence of the actual performance and the latter for the sake of accuracy and verification. Novice transcribers have a tendency of missing things and filling in the gaps with what they hear based on the past. With that in mind I used to pause after every single note, which made that event the very last one that my ear heard. Nowadays I do that less frequently, because I've now heard enough harmonic and rhythmic variations to be on the money most of the time, regardless of speed.

For the record, even a great transcriber like Wolf (Marshall) tells me that when it comes to guitar solos, he verifies at 1/4 speed because he's adamant about picking up the exact string and fret location of the phrase. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for mentioning verification, Mark. I, too, verify at a slow speed. I've found it helpful to sometimes loop as little as a quarter note when verifying notes.

One function I've found helpful for verifying notes with Transcribe! is the "divide measure" feature. It's easy to use. You just double click on the marker at the beginning of a measure and click on the subdivide feature. It allows you to visually verify the rhythm that your ear heard.

A trick I use for verifying is to compare rhthmic placement of the guitar part with other instruments. A simple example would be a rock guitar part. If the bass drum is playing on beats one and three; the snare, on two and four; and the hi-hat on every eighth note, you can use that as a "ruler" against which rhythms can be measured. This is often helpful when transcribing slow blues rhythms (one of the hardest transcription challenges IMHO). BTW, I've found this to be excellent practice for playing with a real drummer.

I've found it helpful to listen for slurs and slides when verifying position playing (to get the right string and fret). If you hear a slide or a slur, both notes are on the same string (thereby limiting position choices). Other things, like hearing a note repeat, but on different strings, is another good indicator. It is very hard for me, however, to figure out what position is being used. I'm usually happy just getting the notes and rhythm!
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Slow Blues Notation? Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
This is often helpful when transcribing slow blues rhythms (one of the hardest transcription challenges IMHO).


Len,

Oh, you mean like this...



As you can see from just a tiny portion of a lengthy GB slow blues solo (and a GREAT one), this is a scoring nightmare that I've experienced on many an occasion. Laughing

Well worth the effort, though. Btw, this was transferred from a handwritten score using "The Copyist" by Dr. T (Atari 1040ST) back in the 80's. For those of you who don't need no stinkin' TAB, enjoy the licks!

- Mark
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark;

Thanks for the blues patterns....
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sincerely yours,

Todd
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Thanks Larry. Very logical response. BTW, after working on a solo for awhile, I've also found it helpful to practice the lines with a metronome. I am sometimes surprised by the improvements I've made when I go back to playing with the CD. It also has a tendency to highlight (by their absence) the cues I was picking up from the CD (notably, bass and drum tracks, especially drum fills).


nylenny and Larry_DC; thanks for the meaningful dialogue
and thoughts on transcribing. I'm creating a 'summary' document
('a best of...') on the 'transcribing treads' from around the forum
for my library.

Really valuable input from you guys.


-Kb
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Blues Patterns Reply with quote

Todd wrote:
Thanks for the blues patterns....


Todd,

My pleasure. Besides painting a picture of the challenge in transcribing slow blues (or ballads), hopefully it will give you and others a glimpse into what I was doing back then in order to fully assimilate what I had transcribed.

In other words, I created a personal book of Solo Highlights (aka "licks") based on my transcriptions of influential artists, like GB, Oscar Peterson, Tom Scott, Charlie Parker, Kenny Burrell, Grant Green, Robben Ford, Hank Garland, and others. Next up I extracted all of the blues-related licks, transposed them into the key of C for analysis and review, and numbered them chronologically as they had occurred in the original solo. Then I would practice the licks and explore every possible playing position on the fingerboard, as opposed to wasting precious time playing scales and modes. Btw, the Benson segment alone is comprised of over 700 blues clichés, because he is such an imaginative player.

Anyway, with all of the accolades I've gotten over the years regarding my playing, I think it's very important for me to share the "method behind the madness" with yourself and others. I wasn't born with the ability. It came from many years of trials and tribulations in order to find the right path, and then back it up with hard work and dedication. I call it "acquired talent" and proof positive that you become what you practice. Wink

- Mark
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Blues Patterns Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Todd wrote:
Thanks for the blues patterns....


Todd,

My pleasure. Besides painting a picture of the challenge in transcribing slow blues (or ballads), hopefully it will give you and others a glimpse into what I was doing back then in order to fully assimilate what I had transcribed.


Mark,

What did you use for audio playback in that time?
Analog 'open reel', cassette, vinyl ('drop the needle') - with varispeed ?


-Kb
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Blues Patterns Reply with quote

kbgtr001 wrote:
What did you use for audio playback in that time?
Analog 'open reel', cassette, vinyl ('drop the needle') - with varispeed?


Kb,

"Dropping the needle?" Hey, man... I'm not quite THAT old! Laughing

Seriously, that was more my father's generation, and early on Pop would actually use his family's wind-up Victrola, so a recording in C might start in C# and end up in B. He had a lot of funny transcribing stories to tell.

Of course, I did use LP's as a source back then (70's and 80's), but dubbed material onto a pair of Sony open-reel decks. They're still in my attic, the transports damaged from excessive starting, stopping, and pausing while transcribing. I used 7 1/2 ips for regular and 3 3/4 ips for slower playback (same key but one octave lower).

- Mark
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
One function I've found helpful for verifying notes with Transcribe! is the "divide measure" feature. It's easy to use. You just double click on the marker at the beginning of a measure and click on the subdivide feature. It allows you to visually verify the rhythm that your ear heard.


Thanks for the hot tip. I had no idea that the divide measure feature existed. I would slow tricky sections down to 10% and use foot tapping do bisect the measures.
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