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The Repetition "Myth"

 
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:27 am    Post subject: The Repetition "Myth" Reply with quote

I believe that one of the greatest myths in educational circles, especially with regards to jazz, is that repeating yourself is a bad thing. Every single one of my favorite players, regardless of instrument, are noted for repeating their trademark phrases to the point where the ideas became totally associated with that given artist. Remove them and you remove the personality of the player.

My feeling is that this ongoing myth is perpetuated by those who have very little to say as composers and improvisers, so it's very easy for them to sit back and define what constitutes true artistic expression without possessing anything substantial to back up their false conclusions. Sadly this is all too common in the world of music education at the academic level, when all it takes is some seriously listening to great players to reveal the truth.

Beyond simply repeating familiar phrases, I've always been a fan of players who use repetitive ideas to build dynamics in solos and move the listener. Grant Green, George Benson, Kenny Burrell, Pat Martino and Oscar Peterson are just a few of my influences who come to mind. It's a rather long list of players who subscribe to the notion of using repetitions to generate excitement in a performance.

Any thoughts on the subject? All for now...

- Mark
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you 100%,if you get licks down,they usually fit in a lot of different spots when playing.I think BB King does this to some extent.If it feels right ,why not.It's like slang when talking...you use it over and over,in a lot of different topics.
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Repetition can be found in all music from Bach to bluegrass if you listen closely. I really became aware of it when I began to transcribe. Bird would use the same phrases sometimes more than once in the same solo, but they fit so well that you don't notice unless you are really paying attention. I found one phrase that Kenny Burrell used once in a major blues solo, then again in another song that was minor, and over a different chord shape.
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Mark
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: The Value of Repetition Reply with quote

Larry_DC wrote:
I really became aware of it when I began to transcribe. Bird would use the same phrases sometimes more than once in the same solo, but they fit so well that you don't notice unless you are really paying attention. I found one phrase that Kenny Burrell used once in a major blues solo, then again in another song that was minor, and over a different chord shape.


Larry,

You made two great points, the first one about transcribing. As I said before, it's easy to sit back and theorize without knowing the truth, and transcribing reveals the truth. When someone says "A good improviser doesn't repeat himself," that also reveals something to me, which is that the person making the statement hasn't bothered to investigate to really know what they're talking about. Unfortunately, there are far too many non-transcribers teaching jazz, and that's precisely how these myths get passed on by supposedly "credible" instructors, then parroted by their students.

Your other point is noteworthy as well, which is that the artistry often lies in how the improviser is deceptively using a similar phrase within the same solo, so it's not a matter of what they're saying per se, but how they're saying it. Or in the case you brought up regarding KB, the fact that they may be using the same phrase over a different set of changes in a different tune.

Of course, I have to admit that I just LOVE blatant repetition if it's done well. I often joke that you could hear Grant Green playing a repetitive lick and leave the club, walk around the block, and when you came back he'd be on the same figure. Smile

Exaggeration, perhaps.. but there are so many examples of players that use repeated figures to generate percussive dynamics in a solo. I'm as pleasantly guilty of that as anyone. Examples? How about Oscar Peterson's epic 10-chorus "C Jam Blues" solo (Night Train), where his two peak choruses are totally built around a repetitive theme? Or Pat Martino's 10-chorus "Sunny" solo (Live), where he plays the same figure for two of those choruses, unquestionably the hottest part of the solo that elicited such a powerful response from the audience? All for now...

- Mark
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larry_DC wrote:
Repetition can be found in all music from Bach to bluegrass if you listen closely.
I really became aware of it when I began to transcribe. Bird would use the same phrases sometimes
more than once in the same solo, but they fit so well that you don't notice unless you are really paying attention.
I found one phrase that Kenny Burrell used once in a major blues solo, then again in another song that was minor,
and over a different chord shape.


The great composers (/improvisers) understand (understood) the importance and value of repetition.
What we know to be 'Form' in music is how repetition is expressed and developed over time.

The rudimentary contrapuntal techniques, i.e. retrograde, inversion, and retrograde-inversion are different ways of restating
a primary (source) musical thought, although they can each sound very different than the initial line. Of course, transposition
is an important ingredient too.





-Kb

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Mark
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Repetitions & Composition Reply with quote

kbgtr001 wrote:
The great composers (/improvisers) understand (understood) the importance and value of repetition.
What we know to be 'Form' in music is how repetition is expressed and developed over time.


Kb,

While what you say is certainly true, my point is directed a bit less at the compositional side of music and more at the spontaneous improvisational side. After all, most of those perpetuating the repetition myth would agree that composition does indeed require form and repetition. I mean, what would a standard be without a repeated verse or A section? What would a pop tune be without a repeated hook? Or a Motown classic or groove tune (like On Broadway) without a signature repeated bass theme?

The myth I'm referring to is a common one circulated by players and some teachers regarding the actual harmonic content of a given solo, and the notion that in the context of improvising repetition should be avoided. However, as you allude there is a correlation between composing and improvising, and in that sense an aspiring improviser should realize that one of the main reasons a song becomes endearing is due to familiar phrases associated with parts of that tune, or the actual composer.

Personal story (apologies if anyone's heard this before Wink):

One of the reasons I got hooked on repetitions dates back to my rookie days, when my brother-in-law (a brilliant saxophonist), used to bring me to some hot SF Bay Area jam sessions. When it came to experience I was clearly under-equipped, yet had to follow these smokin' keyboard and horn solos with my feeble efforts. Kind of like a two-bit comic following Robin Williams, if you get the frustrating picture?

Well, the one thing I learned is that if I did the simplest thing possible to cap off a weak solo, which was to use a repeated figure even as basic as picking the root note in succession, the rhythm section picked up on it and the energy in the room rose up with me. I'll never forget what that felt like, and even though I'm now capable of playing a solo loaded with solid content, I still bank on repetitions to take it even higher. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are two examples of repetition Wes uses. I can think of four varieties in total (more on that later).

"Wes Repetitions"

The first two “sound bites” display his handling of a two-five in D-flat, both from Four on Six from The Incredible Guitar Artistry album. Both examples occur in the same place (measure number) in the chord changes.

I lifted the first of the bites from Wes' initial chorus; the second, from Wes' third chorus.

Notice that when Wes repeats the one-measure phrase, he repeats the exact notes, but with a different rhythm. It really changes the character!

The third sound bite is of Wes playing a direct repetition in measures one and two of the first chorus.

Other types of repetition: Alright, I said there were four types. The other two are sequences (both diatonic and sequences adjusted to fit the changes), and a type of variation of which Wes is a master. Wes often "tweaks" licks (kind of like theme and variation) to develop an idea. While he is not directly repeating, the economy of material smacks of repetition.


And there are so many more examples. These are two of my favorites, however. I really like how the eb-7 Ab7 line changes character with the slightest change to its rhythm. The g-7 lick is so useful, especially when you get flustered improvising, because its so easy to play.

I picked these ideas up from playing along with many choruses of Wes solos.

I would be interested in hearing other's thoughts on this subject.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, regarding the first two sound bites on my last post: only pay attention to the one measure phrase over an eb-7 A7. The other material does not repeat. Hope I didn't confuse anyone.
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