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Soloing over Swing Blues Using Scales and Modes
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:08 pm    Post subject: Soloing over Swing Blues Using Scales and Modes Reply with quote

In my search for knowledge of what to play over each chord while soloing I've come across some information which I'd like the group's opinion on. That is, the concept of utilizing the various scales and modes to build solos from. To name a few...for a blues one can utilize the major scale, major pentatonic, mixolydian, blues, minor pentatonic, diminished, and Lydian dominate scales. To me this seems like a lot of scales/modes to memorize and I hate even discussing them. But what do you think about taking any of the scales/modes in any position on the neck and then building some of your "pet licks and phrases" based on these scales/modes and then using those phrases in your solos? Think it's a waste of time or a worthy endeavor?
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find that scales intertwine,meaning you can add and take away notes from any scale.I will put on a background cd ,and solo over it,it helps me learn what will and won't work.I've got to were I will mix scales or go completely into a different scale.Hope this makes sence.
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a reformed scale player, it is my opinion that scales are a means to an end but would never get me to the place I want to go musically. I look at scales like I do the alphabet. We all know the alphabet, but it would be pretty hard to speak English without organizing the letters into words and paragraphs.

I have been incredibly busy this summer as it is the major travel time for the airlines. However I had a chance to jam with a young player (age 22) in our area that has wanted to get together with me for a while. He came to my house armed with more theory and scales than you could shake a stick at. He is currently studying at the University of Houston with Mike Wheeler (a well known player in Houston) in pursuit of a degree in music.

I have to tell you, his reference to scales drove me up a wall. I am convinced it is holding him back from being a good player. Every time I threw out an idea he would respond with, so that is Dorian? Or are you thinking Phrygian? I was thinking of music, he was thinking of the alphabet.

As a good example I told him how I like to use the C# on a Dm chord. He said is that harmonic minor or melodic minor? I said it is a note that works well, just try it.

I would like to know how many scale positions BB King knows and can use. From listening to his playing he is not using many scales and would probably be hard pressed to play a major scale in five positions. When I listen to guys like Pat Metheny I think I am hearing the epitome of scale playing, and it doesn’t hold my attention. When I listen to Wes, I think I am hearing the epitome of jazz language and after 40 years I still love it.

I could tear down Parkers licks and place them into some kind of scale structure, but why would I? I prefer to grasp the concept and try to apply it to the songs I play.

Dave
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave ,I hear you,but you said it better then me.If it works ,it works.I don't know all the terms and modes,but I can tell if it sounds good.All tho knowing some scales helps me know were I am at on the finger board,and helps me know where notes should fit in.
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't beleive in totally trying to memorize the scales/modes, in all 12 keys, etc. like some teachers want you to do. I think it is impossible. I don't even like describing what I'm doing with all those fancy phrases like Dorian, etc. I'm just saying pick one scale as a starting point for a solo and start building lines and melodies from it and see what happens. Did Wes just hunt and peck around on the fretboard until he heard the note he wanted to play not knowing what in the world he was doing - just that it sounded good? How did Wes get it all together so well and so fast? What was his practice routine like? He didn't even have all this computer hardware & software programs to help out or any forum to post to. Did he even take one lesson?
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Scales, Licks, Wes, etc Reply with quote

Don MacArthur wrote:
I don't believe in totally trying to memorize the scales/modes, in all 12 keys, etc. like some teachers want you to do. I think it is impossible. I don't even like describing what I'm doing with all those fancy phrases like Dorian, etc. I'm just saying pick one scale as a starting point for a solo and start building lines and melodies from it and see what happens. Did Wes just hunt and peck around on the fretboard until he heard the note he wanted to play not knowing what in the world he was doing - just that it sounded good? How did Wes get it all together so well and so fast? What was his practice routine like? He didn't even have all this computer hardware & software programs to help out or any forum to post to. Did he even take one lesson?


Don,

First of all and just to set the record straight, while I don't consider myself a scale-based player at all, I've always possessed a "leave no stones unturned" philosophy, so there was a period early in my career when I maintained an efficient scale and scale variation routine. I would stay in one key and work my way from the first position up the neck until duplication at the twelfth fret, reviewing some 21 different scale forms and 22 variations. Sometimes I would change keys (e.g. C to F to Bb, etc) on a weekly basis, sometimes on a daily basis.

Even though something inside told me that my time might be better spent elsewhere, it only took some 20-30 minutes to do this entire review, which I felt was acceptable. What changed over the years was replacing the "up the neck" routine with core language instead, to the point where I ended up dropping scale practice altogether. This dovetails with my mantra of only practicing something that you would actually play for someone, so in that sense I totally agree with what Dave said regarding scales. While what you say about memorizing scales/modes in all keys/positions is certainly not impossible and has some merit, it is impractical to invest the majority of time there. So I say practice them 5 minutes out of every hour just as a means of understanding the neck, but spend the other 55 minutes on core language. You become what you practice, right?

As far as Wes is concerned, he was the epitome of an ear player who not only didn't practice scales, but didn't read or write music at all. The same can be said for Christian, Pass, and Benson. Montgomery played and memorized CC solos note for note for the first three years of his performing life because he felt as though he couldn't improvise, prove positive that the ear and language trumps all else in jazz.

But getting back to my "leaving no stones unturned" philosophy, I've never modeled my jazz approach after a guitar player. My main influences are non-guitarists, like pianist Oscar Peterson and horn players like Bird, Trane, Miles, etc. All knew scales and could read and write music fluently, so I drew my logical conclusions based simply on observing my mentors.

- Mark
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

What exactly do you mean when you say "core language?" Lines transcribed from other solid players? I want to make sure I understand what you are talking about.

Thanks,
Don
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Core Language Reply with quote

Don MacArthur wrote:
What exactly do you mean when you say "core language?" Lines transcribed from other solid players? I want to make sure I understand what you are talking about.


Don,

"Core language" is precisely what Dave was referring to with his words and sentence comment. Translation? Great licks, phrases, etc. It's what is historically passed down from player to player through the time-honored and proven tradition of imitation (aka transcribing - written or not), then assimilation into a unique voice.

For Wes, the language began with what he initially learned from Christian, then later from a host of legendary bebop players, including Bird (Charlie Parker). For Bird it was what he learned from Coleman Hawkins and Lester Young, which jump-started his transformation from a wannabe but mediocre improviser into eventually one of the greatest innovators of the genre. Same goes for Oscar Peterson, who started with Art Tatum. The list goes on and on and on, but make no mistake about it. With the language you are armed and dangerous as a creative improviser with a chance to become an innovator. Without it you have nothing significant to say, which is sadly the case for so many scale-based players.

Every genre of music has its own core language relevant to that style. Blues is fairly obvious, yet it effectively crosses over into other genres. Many jazzers only pay it lip service instead of realizing the full potential of its language. With jazz and the quest for change-running, long and short two-fives and turnaround formulas are critical language components.

What I highly recommend to you or anyone else is to write your own language (lick) book, reflective of what you've learned and care to review. For me that process began in earnest as I abandoned the scale routine and replaced it with well over two thousand great ideas gleaned from great players. Guess what happened? Wink In time all of your acquired knowledge starts to morph as you determine your own destiny and develop that personal voice. I haven't look back since. All for now...

- Mark
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luckyb251



Joined: 11 Apr 2008
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: 2-5's (Short and Long) Reply with quote

Mark, I have been for your a long time student of yours. Among the many gifts that you have given to me, the proper use of 2-5's over a blues progression it nearest and dearest to my heart. I use it in anything from B.B.King to Miles Davis.

Your simple, yet concise and ingenious presentation of the use of 2-5's has altered my approach to the music.

Of course, I know 2-5's can be used in many situations, but today I am putting them smack dab in the middle of my blues.
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: 2-5's (Short and Long) Reply with quote

luckyb251 wrote:
Mark, I have been for your a long time student of yours. Among the many gifts that you have given to me, the proper use of 2-5's over a blues progression it nearest and dearest to my heart. I use it in anything from B.B.King to Miles Davis.

Your simple, yet concise and ingenious presentation of the use of 2-5's has altered my approach to the music.

Of course, I know 2-5's can be used in many situations, but today I am putting them smack dab in the middle of my blues.


Doug,

Thanks for the kind words, man. Yes, you and I go pretty far back, years before the Vision Music website was launched in the Fall of '97.

Time is such a funny thing. It almost seems like yesterday that my father got me aside (when I was only 18-19 years old) and told me that if I ever wanted to play jazz I would have to get away from the "just add water" blues scale and pick up some two-fives. You know, I still have the first group of cool jazz licks that Pop wrote out for me. I was playing in a little blues trio back then and we would often record ourselves. It felt SO contrived to use those licks, but when I heard the tapes I thought, "Wow, I actually sound like a jazz player!" Wink

Well, it was enough to convince me that he was right and that I needed to learn the language in order to expand my harmonic horizons, so like yourself that advice altered my playing forever. I suppose that much of what I try to do as an educator is to open the same door for you and others, and it's always gratifying to hear that it's working! All for now...

- Mark
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jlc



Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

What is meant by: pick up some two-fives?

thanks

jlc
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Two-Fives Reply with quote

jlc wrote:
What is meant by: pick up some two-fives?


JLC,

It's a reference to the II-V sequence commonly found at bars 9 & 10 of a swing blues progression (e.g. C Jam Blues, Tenor Madness, Billie's Bounce, etc). So Dm7 to G7 in the key of C, as opposed to the standard V-IV (G7 to F7) found in more traditional blues progressions.

Shortly after heeding my father's advice, I began to read time and time again how important it was for a serious jazz improviser to gain a grip on the all-important II-V sequence, as it constitutes as much as 80% of the changes found in standards. Understand that it's not just the actual II-V of that given key, because in jazz-related compositions you are often modulating.

For instance, even in a swing blues in C you can employ II-V's at bars 3 & 4 (Gm7 to C7 leading to the F7 at bar 5), bar 8 (Em7 to A7 leading to the Dm7) and the standard turnaround at bars 11 & 12. All of a sudden you're now looking at the potential of using that language in perhaps 6-8 bars of a 12-bar blues progression.

The harmonic power and possibilities go FAR beyond what I am describing here, but to suffice it to say that mastery of the II-V progression is critical to being a successful changes player. Any student of mine who has taken part in my Swing Blues: Doorway to Jazz course knows exactly what I am talking about, as one of the central thrusts is to fill the II-V gap with the language of Bird, Benson, Trane, Peterson, etc, etc.

- Mark
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jlc



Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark, i am going to have to write this out and study it awhile, if i get it i will see if i can employ it.

jlc
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For Wes, the language began with what he initially learned from Christian, then later from a host of legendary bebop players, including Bird (Charlie Parker). For Bird it was what he learned from Coleman Hawkins and Lester Young, which jump-started his transformation from a wannabe but mediocre improviser into eventually one of the greatest innovators of the genre. Same goes for Oscar Peterson, who started with Art Tatum. The list goes on and on and on, but make no mistake about it. With the language you are armed and dangerous as a creative improviser with a chance to become an innovator. Without it you have nothing significant to say, which is sadly the case for so many scale-based players.


As an avid transcriber (it actually becomes fun after awhile), I've been playing along with a few Wes solos lately. I find it easier to remember the Wes solo if I think of the scale "grid" below my fingers. While I thoroughly agree that scales can actually imrison their ardent supporters, they can be helpful for understanding what others are playing, cataloging those sounds, and stringing licks together.

I tend to use both scales and "language," although, as I progress, I find that I am increasingly using the "language" I've learned from transcribing.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like, even though Wes relied on his ear, his solos generally follow the theoretical rules. My personal theory is that Wes memorized licks in relationship to chord shapes. So when he applied a lick passed down from his mentors, Wes played it in the correct position (starting fret), and it fit. I draw that conclusion from transcribing numerous choruses, and marvelling at how well the language fits on the fingerboard and in relationship to CAGED shapes. (I'm curious if others agree.)

Every so often Wes plays a note that makes no sense to me (like flat-sevenths over major 7 chords (not in a bebob scale setting), or major thirds over minor 7th chords). From my transcriptions, I've found that he does this at most once in a chorus. Ironically, those notes are often the most beautiful and interesting in the chorus.
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