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The Future of Jazz Guitar
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Urs Helfenstein



Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Lucerne, Switzerland

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: The Future of Jazz Guitar Reply with quote

There are lots of Jazz guitarists I adore, but the most of them have one thing in common: They are about fifty years old or even (much) older. In the history of Jazz, up to the seventies or maybe the eighties of the last century, there have been lots of very young musicians trying to find new ways to play their music, to play Jazz. What’s about such musicians in our time? Has Jazz Guitar and Jazz in general become a death art form in the sense of an art form which is played but is not developed any further? I would like to discuss with the forum members about (young) guitarists with an new approach or an own “voice”.

Urs Helfenstein
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: The Future of Jazz Guitar Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
There are lots of Jazz guitarists I adore, but the most of them have one thing in common: They are about fifty years old or even (much) older. In the history of Jazz, up to the seventies or maybe the eighties of the last century, there have been lots of very young musicians trying to find new ways to play their music, to play Jazz. What’s about such musicians in our time? Has Jazz Guitar and Jazz in general become a death art form in the sense of an art form which is played but is not developed any further? I would like to discuss with the forum members about (young) guitarists with an new approach or an own “voice”.


Urs,

Excellent topic to discuss, my friend. I think much of the assessment of young players is tied into the very definition of the genre itself. On the one hand, jazz can be viewed as all-encompassing world, capable of embracing a wide array of creative and respected players under the "fusion" umbrella.

However, there's a traditional side of my jazz personality (and that of many of my colleagues) that feels strong about the importance of "paying your dues" as a blues and bebop/changes player, which is exactly the area where many fusion players come up short.

As you might know, I had the great pleasure of interviewing a young and quite formidable Swedish jazz guitarist, Andreas Oberg, back in February of this year. It was my 8th JJG cover story interview to date, and my second with a guitarist from that region. Ulf Wakenius is the other.

Andreas and I became good friends in the process, meeting face to face in SoCal at the NAMM Show, then exchanging recordings back and forth, etc. To me, as a relatively young jazz guitarist (about 30 years old), he is not only talented and a brilliant technician, but has a deep affinity for blues and the bebop tradition in the spirit of Wes Montgomery and George Benson, plus he's an excellent Gypsy Jazz guitarist as well.

I've invited Andreas to become a member of our Teacher Feature guest faculty. To see his upcoming artist page, click here. I've also composed and dedicated an original bebop composition to my friend, entitled Good To Go and based on the changes to the uptempo "Move" by Denzil Best. I plan to release the chart in a future eBook for forum members. And for anyone misled into thinking that Oberg is just another "all chops speed merchant?" Think again, because under the hood he is harmonically loaded with powerful language gleaned from hard work and transcribing.

Btw and speaking of young jazz guitarists, Eric Wakenius (Ulf's 20-year-old son) is a big fan of Vision Music who has been corresponding with me recently. As long as there are young players who really do understand the tradition of jazz guitar as passed down by the greats, in my mind there will always be hope for the future of the genre. All for now...

- Mark
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Urs Helfenstein



Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Lucerne, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark

I’m absolutely sure that Andreas Oberg is a brilliant guitarist. And I’m absolutely sure that I would like his playing as you do, because I love the music of Wes, Kenny, Jim Hall, Tal Farlow and all the others, and I listen to their great music almost every day in the year. But: You wrote “There's a traditional side of my jazz personality (and that of many of my colleagues) that feels strong about the importance of "paying your dues" as a blues and bebop/changes player”. Okay, but Wes stood in the tradition of jazz (guitar), he was paying his dues as a blues and a bebop/changes player, but he also changed the jazz world with his new ideas. That’s also true (more or less) for the other guitarists I listed. And that’s what I hope to hear one day again: Jazz musicians standing in the tradition and having new ideas. The last time I had this impression was on a concert of Bill Frisell, back in 1995 (even when not everything in his music convinced me). But that’s more than ten years ago…
How do you, Mark, and how do the forum members think about my thoughts?

Urs
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Mark
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: The Future of Jazz Guitar Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
Okay, but Wes stood in the tradition of jazz (guitar), he was paying his dues as a blues and a bebop/changes player, but he also changed the jazz world with his new ideas. That’s also true (more or less) for the other guitarists I listed. And that’s what I hope to hear one day again: Jazz musicians standing in the tradition and having new ideas.


Urs,

The jazz situation you describe doesn't just apply to the guitar, but to other instruments as well. I believe that it's more indicative of times past (when what Wes and other icons of that day were doing was truly innovative), and times since. Benson was Montgomery's most obvious and significant guitar disciple, and his role as an innovator was merging elements of jazz and blues tradition with popular music. For me, that was a rich time period that's often classified as "Contemporary Jazz," but over the years the recording and radio industry gradually diluted it into a form of "Smooth Jazz" that nowadays totally lacks the creative improvisation of earlier time periods.

It's hard to truly predict the future of jazz guitar or jazz in general. While I do believe that there are brilliant players all over the world who remain dedicated to the genre, so many are working in relative obscurity due to changes in the industry that have made it harder than ever before to make a living playing jazz. The great pioneers and innovators of bebop and post-bebop jazz were constantly performing and recording the music. Nowadays the market and audience has changed. If you can't get quality gigs or get signed to a decent record deal (rare), where's the incentive to commit yourself to the art in the same manner that those players did back then? They weren't financially well off by any means, but by today's jazz standards they were rich in that they at least had performing venues and enough record sales to make a living.

As far as so-called "jazz guitarists" who lack genuine knowledge of blues and core jazz language (like the one you mentioned and so many others that come to mind), they do absolutely nothing for me. I don't consider them innovators, because their compositions and improvisations are missing the elements that move me emotionally as well as intellectually. Jazz trumpet legend Clark Terry once said that the path to innovation lies with imitation and assimilation first and foremost. I completely agree with that philosophy, because you can't "stretch the envelope" if you don't have one. Wink

My father always said that music is a cyclic affair, and I'm sure that we will see more jazz guitar innovation in time. Like I alluded above, it may in fact be happening right now, but without industry exposure and support much of it remains a best kept secret. All for now...

- Mark
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Urs Helfenstein



Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Lucerne, Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooops! Now I’ve got a difference of opinion with my (guitar) teacher! It’s quite a long time since I had such thing, because now I’m used to be the teacher myself and dispute with my students. Laughing
I don’t think that “the guitarist I mentioned” (Bill Frisell) is only a so-called Jazz guitarist who lack knowledge of blues and jazz language. I re-read his interview in “Just Jazz Guitar” and did listen again to some of his records: He studied the Jazz masters and then tried to find his own voice and his own statements. I’m not very filled with enthusiasm by his last few records, but as much as I’m concerned I think his playing in the nineties is a remarkable contribution to Jazz.
Since the “Bebop-Revolution” there have always been different trends in Jazz. Louis Armstrong, the great innovator of the twenties and the thirties, refused the music of the Bebopers, Miles Davis didn’t like the music of Ornette Coleman and so on. In my first post to the topic I wondered if Jazz is still a living art form. Now I would say: It is a living art form as long as there are such different approaches as the guitar playing of Bill Frisell and Mark Stefani. And I hope, Mark, it’s not insulting to you when I say: I like both of you!

Urs
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Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: The Future of Jazz Guitar Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
Now I would say: It is a living art form as long as there are such different approaches as the guitar playing of Bill Frisell and Mark Stefani. And I hope, Mark, it’s not insulting to you when I say: I like both of you!


Urs,

Not insulting in the least. Wink Jazz is a huge genre, like others. Frankly, much of it I don't particular care for, because my main affinity has always been the blues first and foremost. That's where we differ, and I have no problem with that at all.

But here's the thing...

I don't care what a player might say in an interview regarding studying the greats, because if I don't hear evidence of it in his/her playing, it's just empty, cheap talk. I won't name names because I want to be diplomatic and respectful, but there are many well-known modern guitarists who fall into that category. I'll read where they learned every Wes solo and love the blues, then can't detect one shred of that influence in their work, or their original compositions. There's a BIG difference between saying something (and have others parrot it as gospel truth) and proving it.

My main jazz mentor has always been pianist Oscar Peterson, who despite his reputation as a soulful, blues-based jazz artist played some brilliantly sophisticated and modern harmonic ideas as well. That's why I really don't have a favorite jazz guitarist, because I've never heard one who has put it together like OP. But if they aren't at least cut from the same cloth (and the guy you're mentioning definitely is not), then it doesn't ring my bell. Sure, I'll listen to him or anyone, and I have, but the larger question is am I inspired to listen to them repeatedly? If the answer is no, then no matter what he says regarding influences, it's a moot point.

And btw, you always have to take into consideration who the artist in question cites as a "great" jazz influence, because if that influence is weak in the areas I revere most, then to me they are also weak when it comes to what I seek most when listening to a jazz player. That's why this is a subjective issue, but it is reflective of where I set the bar of expectation for my own work, because I want to move a listener the way Oscar Peterson moved me and countless others. All for now...

- Mark
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Urs Helfenstein



Joined: 15 May 2008
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Location: Lucerne, Switzerland

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's hard to truly predict the future of jazz guitar or jazz in general. While I do believe that there are brilliant players all over the world who remain dedicated to the genre, so many are working in relative obscurity due to changes in the industry that have made it harder than ever before to make a living playing jazz. The great pioneers and innovators of bebop and post-bebop jazz were constantly performing and recording the music. Nowadays the market and audience has changed. If you can't get quality gigs or get signed to a decent record deal (rare), where's the incentive to commit yourself to the art in the same manner that those players did back then? They weren't financially well off by any means, but by today's jazz standards they were rich in that they at least had performing venues and enough record sales to make a living.


Mark,

After being convinced that we can go on with our discussion knowing that we won’t agree in some parts Very Happy , I would like to go back to the main topic: The future of Jazz Guitar. I agree with you: Jazz Guitar can’t be discussed for itself, so my question is also about the future of Jazz in general.
I see that times are hard for Jazz musicians due to changes in the industry that have made it harder than ever before to make a living playing jazz. But I think that strong ideas always found their way to the public, don’t you?

Urs

Btw: I wonder why nobody else except Mark and me wants to discuss about this topic. I’m a poor little Swiss boy, far away from the homeland of Jazz, and I’m so curious about things going on in USA and elsewhere in the world!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: The Future of Jazz Guitar Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
I see that times are hard for Jazz musicians due to changes in the industry that have made it harder than ever before to make a living playing jazz. But I think that strong ideas always found their way to the public, don’t you?

Btw: I wonder why nobody else except Mark and me wants to discuss about this topic. I’m a poor little Swiss boy, far away from the homeland of Jazz, and I’m so curious about things going on in USA and elsewhere in the world!


Urs,

Yes, thanks primarily to the internet there is a"level playing field" and an opportunity for ideas to emerge and get exposed nowadays. However, it doesn't change the reality that a jazz artist needs to survive, so it's hard to justify a full-blown commitment to evolving the art to a higher level.

Actually, for a "poor little Swiss boy" you are FAR more in touch with the history of jazz and jazz guitar than most aspiring players I meet here, and frankly I'm not surprised. Not only have I encountered that from many students I've had in your part of the world, but my JJG interviews and getting to know both Ulf Wakenius and Andreas Oberg completely confirm my conclusion that these guys are superb jazz players because they actually do "get it" with regards to the Clark Terry philosophy. Both may admire and respect fusion guitarists, but they've really paid their dues by learning the core blues and jazz language through transcribing (written or not), the way it's supposed to be.

So much in the way of innovation was accomplished during the swing, bebop, post-bebop, and modal eras of the genre, so I really don't know what to say about the future of jazz or jazz guitar except that I don't think for a second that it will ever die out. As an art music it's become time period-based, much like classical music. I mean, how does anyone truly exceed what the great players of those bygone eras (Bird, Trane, Miles, Monk, Rollins, Peterson, etc, etc) brought to the table in terms of innovation? I'm happy just to see their influence live on. All for now...

- Mark
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I can add to this discussion,is jazz just does not get its due.It is a musicians music.The people that influence what gets played are young,and have not had the life experience to know what great music jazz is.At least jazz won a award this year...it only took forty years to do it.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: The Future of Jazz Guitar Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
The only thing I can add to this discussion,is jazz just does not get its due.It is a musicians music.The people that influence what gets played are young,and have not had the life experience to know what great music jazz is.At least jazz won a award this year...it only took forty years to do it.


Dean,

Thanks for chiming in, my friend. You could make the case that jazz has never gotten it's due, but back in the JATP (Jazz At The Philharmonic) days it was much more popular among general fans attending concerts and going to clubs. My father was gigging and jamming constantly and during the fifties there were at least 15 jazz club venues thriving in San Francisco, but that gradually changed over the sixties with the rising popularity of rock 'n roll and club owners hiring non-union musicians. There was a lot of bitterness among jazz players who lost their income and ability to support their families as a result of that economical change.

In either case, I do agree that more and more it's become a "musician's music," but that does have something to do with lack of exposure. Even with the existence of the internet nowadays, the average person really has to go looking for jazz to find it, whereas in times past the live scene was happening, record sales were up, and jazz radio wasn't controlled the way it is today. Personally I believe that the music will always be potentially attractive to a general audience, but they have to be able to hear it for that to happen.

- Mark
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man this discussion is deep and ironically something I have been thinking about for the past month or so. All I can say is that I don't make my living at playing jazz guitar and never will. Besides not being good enough, there just are not any venues to play and especially where I live in Eastern Washington state. The one place I could play is a non-profit organization and one that is closing down due to lack of funding. It's just a hobby for me and one that allows me to play what I want to hear (not what others want to hear) and that's jazz with lots of blues thrown in. Around here, if I really wanted a gig, I'd have pick up a solid body and devote more time to playing rock or more of the string bending type of blues, music I moved away from many years ago in pursuit of more sophiscated sounds.

Don
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jimbol51



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:11 pm    Post subject: Future of Jazz Guitar Reply with quote

Hi Mark and guys,

I'm currently on the way to Maine moving there from San Diego. Stopped in Chicago where I went to school years ago and could not believe that almost every jazz venue that I went to during the late 70's is not only gone but .........everything is Guitar Center it seems in Chicago as of this date............sad...............jim p.s. as I'm typing this my wife's nephews are playing this Guitar Hero program which is totally making me feel like an idiot..........
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Future of Jazz Guitar Reply with quote

Don MacArthur wrote:
All I can say is that I don't make my living at playing jazz guitar and never will. Besides not being good enough, there just are not any venues to play and especially where I live in Eastern Washington state. The one place I could play is a non-profit organization and one that is closing down due to lack of funding. It's just a hobby for me and one that allows me to play what I want to hear (not what others want to hear) and that's jazz with lots of blues thrown in. Around here, if I really wanted a gig, I'd have pick up a solid body and devote more time to playing rock or more of the string bending type of blues, music I moved away from many years ago in pursuit of more sophiscated sounds.


Don,

I'm an optimist by nature, and even though things have changed over the years with regards to available jazz venues and recordings, I still maintain high hopes of what is artistically possible. For instance (and as I've often said), I have yet to hear any one jazz guitarist who truly rings my bell the way I imagine, so that means there is elbow room out there to do something that's never been done. Is that "innovation?" A subjective question, but when you consider that jazz evolution has always been about blending influences gleaned from imitating and assimilating the language in a personal manner, anything is possible. Btw, in my book you are definitely "good enough" Wink.

Jim wrote:
I'm currently on the way to Maine moving there from San Diego. Stopped in Chicago where I went to school years ago and could not believe that almost every jazz venue that I went to during the late 70's is not only gone but .........everything is Guitar Center it seems in Chicago as of this date............sad.


Jim,

Wow, I know you've been looking forward to relocating from San Diego for some time, but I wasn't aware that you had actually pulled the trigger. Best of luck, my friend. And thanks for taking time to join the discussion.

As far as the jazz scene in your old stomping grounds (Chicago), venue owners have always been concerned with one thing and one thing only, and that's the bottom line. It's purely supply and demand. If they can get away with paying next to nothing to put butts in seats and make the same money that they'd make paying for top players, they're going to do it without batting an eye or losing sleep over the plight of jazz musicians who have paid the dues and have families to support. It may be "sad" but it's not going to stop me from playing jazz. You just have to have some forward vision in how you're going to earn a living while maintaining your artistic integrity. The reason I've taught for so many years is that I thoroughly enjoy it, and as I share the knowledge with others my playing and composing continues to improve and evolve. All for now...

- Mark
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Urs Helfenstein



Joined: 15 May 2008
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Location: Lucerne, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually, for a "poor little Swiss boy" you are FAR more in touch with the history of jazz and jazz guitar than most aspiring players I meet here, and frankly I'm not surprised. Not only have I encountered that from many students I've had in your part of the world, but my JJG interviews and getting to know both Ulf Wakenius and Andreas Oberg completely confirm my conclusion that these guys are superb jazz players because they actually do "get it" with regards to the Clark Terry philosophy.


Mark,
Thank you for the compliment. Smile For Europeans there has always been a strong fascination for Jazz, both for composers as for listeners. So it’s not amazing that several US-Jazz musicians moved to Europe to make there a living. Dexter Gordon is just one example. Nowadays, like everywhere in the world, in Europe Jazz isn’t that popular as it was in the fifties or the sixties of the last century, but there are remarkable festivals in many European cities, there are Jazz Schools in many countries and in Switzerland for example, when you graduated from such a Jazz School, you’re able to teach your instrument on a public Music School. Like the one who studied classical music. So I agree much with you, when you say Jazz has become much like classical music. But there are people who say the beginning of the end of Jazz as a living art form was when it became a music which was taught at School…

Quote:
The only thing I can add to this discussion,is jazz just does not get its due.It is a musicians music.The people that influence what gets played are young,and have not had the life experience to know what great music jazz is.At least jazz won a award this year...it only took forty years to do it.


Dean,
That’s true: Jazz has become a musicians music. But: What’s to do to change this? Play music like Diana Krall? I love her recordings, especially the ones with the trio, but: It’s nothing new. Or spice up the music with Hiphop or Drum and Bass or other contemporary sounds? Or doing something like Herbie Hancock did with his last record “River: The Joni Letters”? Or accepting the fact and saying once again: It’s like classical music. There are not many people who really understand and love the work of Beethoven or Brahms or Schoenberg, and there are not many who really love and understand Monk and Parker and the other greats in Jazz.

By the way: What do the forum members think about Kurt Rosenwinkel? Is he a new voice in Jazz? Is he an innovator?

All for now

Urs
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: The Future of Jazz Guitar Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
So I agree much with you, when you say Jazz has become much like classical music. But there are people who say the beginning of the end of Jazz as a living art form was when it became a music which was taught at School…


Urs,

Excellent thoughts all the way around! And I couldn't agree more with your parallel regarding the end of jazz related to classical history and when the academic process in essence replaced the creative process.

The great classical composers were (for the most part) marvelous players who improvised as an integral part of their creativity, but as their music was dissected and analyzed in the classroom, the focus drifted to the area of interpretation instead of the roots of their creativity. This is precisely the same situation for what I consider a flawed means of teaching the language of jazz in today's learning institutions, or among instructors who subscribe to putting theory ahead of the fact, not the other way around like it should be taught.

Even though you and I may differ when it comes to the players we admire most, I honestly believe that the reason for the lack of importance given to blues and transcribing core jazz language stems directly from its virtual neglect by those who are supposed "credible" jazz instructors. The sad reality is that many of them only pay lip service to the blues and really can't play meaningful solos, yet they can "talk a good game" when it comes to theory. The problem is further compounded because so many aspiring students are misled into thinking that jazz is all about theory and scale knowledge, when history has clearly proven this is not the case at all.

One other personal point I'll make related to jazz as a classical form is that my jazz mentors were all obsessive when it came to the genre, which is an ideal scenario in selecting an influence to study. However, my goal has never been to stretch the jazz envelope, because I'm not as narrowly focused and consider myself more of an eclectic musician who loves jazz for what it is, and as more of a "means to an end" in blending all of my influences in a way that is unique for me. Whether others see that as innovative or not is a moot point. All for now...

- Mark
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