Vision Music Forum Index Vision Music
Community Forum
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Future of Jazz Guitar
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Vision Music Forum Index -> Guitar: Blues, Jazz & Beyond
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Past + Present = Future Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
Is this the message I get from the motherland of Jazz that Jazz doesn’t develop any further? That the music, based on spontaneity and improvisation, is on a point where it’s only repeating itself? Where is the courage, the spirit you Americans are so famous for?

For me, knowing (Jazz) history helps me to understand the presence and to face the future.


Urs,

Hmm.. regardless of current popularity I would never go so far as to say that jazz is "only repeating itself." After all, at the very core of the genre is the spontaneous improvisation that it's based upon. I'd like to think that any of us who are involved to any degree with core jazz language are stretching the envelope with every solo we take or tune we compose.

It's like speaking or writing. We may use some of the same elements to tell a story, but it comes out different each time. Whether or not the result is perceived by any historian or fan as "innovative" is a moot point, at least to me. The reality is that the knowledge is based upon past study, so my only concern with contributing to the future is what we are creatively doing in the present, and I think the same could be said for jazz musicians doing likewise decades ago. They didn't know that they were making history or defining the future of jazz. They were simply expressing themselves by using their language to improvise and compose. As long as that process remains in place, jazz will always continue to evolve and grow.

- Mark
_________________
"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Past + Present = Future Reply with quote

Quote:
For me, knowing (Jazz) history helps me to understand the presence and to face the future.


I tend to listen to jazz players and their recordings from the 50's-60's, and am familiar with some of those who are now carrying the torches of previous players, but how would you describe what is else is happening now for jazz guitar?
_________________
sincerely yours,

Todd
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Urs Helfenstein



Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Lucerne, Switzerland

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Todd wrote

Quote:
I tend to listen to jazz players and their recordings from the 50's-60's, and am familiar with some of those who are now carrying the torches of previous players, but how would you describe what is else is happening now for jazz guitar?


Todd

My intention by starting this topic was: Discussing (more or less) young players to learn about what’s happening now in the Jazz (guitar) world. I think there are many musicians out there who are worth to be discussed. This can be done in a critical way, of course, because: I also like the Jazz of the fifties and sixties very much, I also like the work of those who are now carrying the torches of previous players, and I’m not the one who thinks that every “new” idea is a good idea. But why not discussing people like Kurt Rosenwinkel and finding out which part of his playing has musical quality and where do I have to be critical? I also think we can’t ignore people like Pat Metheny (I know, he isn’t that young anymore) – at least his trio recordings are worth to be discussed. What I like about Jazz is his richness and the possibility for the player to find his own way of expression as long as his way of expression is convincing. So I would like to put your question once again to all the forum members!

Urs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: The Future of Jazz Guitar Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
I also think we can’t ignore people like Pat Metheny (I know, he isn’t that young anymore) – at least his trio recordings are worth to be discussed. What I like about Jazz is his richness and the possibility for the player to find his own way of expression as long as his way of expression is convincing. So I would like to put your question once again to all the forum members!


Urs,

Once again, this is a subjective issue. With all due respect, if the jazz guitar player in question severely lacks the blues component that has always been at the very foundation of the genre, then it is not "convincing" to me in the least.

In other words, if I am not moved emotionally due to the absence of that critical trait, then it becomes boring and I will rarely listen to it more than once or twice. There is something that Christian, Montgomery, Benson, Burrell, Green, Martino, and others cut from that cloth have in common that transcends intellectualism in jazz, and makes their music SO appealing to the vast majority of listeners and players.

This isn't to say that there aren't many guitarists worthy of discussion, even if they lack the blues element. If anything, talking about them only underlines what I seek most in players that I truly do admire and can listen to over and over again. All for now...

- Mark
_________________
"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Urs Helfenstein



Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Lucerne, Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Quote:
Once again, this is a subjective issue. With all due respect, if the jazz guitar player in question severely lacks the blues component that has always been at the very foundation of the genre, then it is not "convincing" to me in the least.

In other words, if I am not moved emotionally due to the absence of that critical trait, then it becomes boring and I will rarely listen to it more than once or twice.


Mark,

So let's talk about somebody young who's playing really moves me emotionally and who surely has a Blues foundation even when it's not that obviously to hear in his playing as it is by Benson, Burrell and the others you mentioned in your last post. I'm talking about Lionel Loueke, the guy who's playing the guitar on the last release of Herbie Hancock "River: The Joni Letters". I like what he's doing on this CD, it must be even more interesting what he's doing in concert (there's some pretty stuff on Youtube) und on his webside www.lionelloueke.com you can listen to three tracks from his Blue Note debut album. A great young player! Somebody who is rooted in the tradition who tries to bring the everyday life of the 21# century into Jazz!

Urs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gorecki
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Glenwood, MD

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, I tried to give an objective ear. But after listening to everything I could, all I heard was yet another Berklee clone. I didn't hear any soul and most certainly didn't hear anything rooted in blues.

I was a little disappointed. Especially because it seems Berklee doesn't produce any players that know what the hell a melody is. Just playing 'outside' to play 'outside' not because it harmonically enhances the melody. I guess this is the largest hole in the gap these days, no melody. Sad
_________________

Forums Admin VisionMusic.com
Do you know where all of your F'n B flats are?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I listened to some of Lionel Loueke that was posted,not to be mean,I call this noodling or scat jazz.It is like a endless run of notes,it just does not give me that feeling when I hear it.I know the guy is pouring his heart into it,but it is more for his own sole,or like soles.Kind of fits into one kind of personality....just not mine.I can not listen, to much of this style.I hope this is not to harsh,it is just my thought on it.It just does not have that heart beat in it that I like.I am not a expert in jazz,so don't take my thoughts to much.It has to have that groove,to make me move.
_________________
What don't kill you makes you stronger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: A "Great" Young Player? Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
So let's talk about somebody young who's playing really moves me emotionally and who surely has a Blues foundation even when it's not that obviously to hear in his playing as it is by Benson, Burrell and the others you mentioned in your last post. I'm talking about Lionel Loueke, the guy who's playing the guitar on the last release of Herbie Hancock "River: The Joni Letters". I like what he's doing on this CD, it must be even more interesting what he's doing in concert (there's some pretty stuff on Youtube) und on his webside www.lionelloueke.com you can listen to three tracks from his Blue Note debut album. A great young player! Somebody who is rooted in the tradition who tries to bring the everyday life of the 21# century into Jazz!


Urs,

Wow, you can't be serious? Don't assume that a guitarist "surely has a blues foundation" when there's absolutely zero evidence of it in his work, let alone any trace of core jazz language. If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that you can't hide the language if you've done your homework and possess it.

Like Brian, I tried to be as objective as possible, first visiting his web page and then checking out at least a half dozen of his YouTube clips. With all due respect, I've taught players younger than him who are modern, yet have much more of a core blues/jazz foundation and can literally play rings around this guy.

Is he interesting? Yes, somewhat in that he has a percussive approach. Does he play anything memorable or melodic that I would walk away humming or cause me to listen a second time? Definitely not. What "tradition" is he rooted in? Certainly not jazz or blues (to my ear).

To underline my point, let me share a track with you and the other forum members. S.O.S. was composed and recorded several years ago by A.G. Donnaloia, in his early twenties at the time and one of the brightest young jazz guitar stars here in the Pacific Northwest (Portland area). I started coaching A.G. when he was just 17-years-old, and even though he is as eclectic as you can possibly imagine, before long he was inspired to follow my lead and transcribe Wes, Benson, Martino, and many other fine jazzers steeped in the blues tradition. He gigs constantly, with several bands here in town ranging from jazz to blues to pop to hip hop to funk, and merges his acquired core blues/jazz language with other harmonic elements, yet as I said earlier there's no escaping the knowledge once you have it.

Btw, this tune was recorded with his organ-based band, Zuppa, from their "Walk Funky" release. The S.O.S. title stands for "Samba 'O Stefani," a tribute to his coach for what I've taught him and for helping him to get on the right path Wink.

- Mark
_________________
"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, now that had groove,and I think I heard some George Benson in that tune.Could be wrong.....but it jamed.Again just my thoughts.
_________________
What don't kill you makes you stronger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: Groove Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
Mark, now that had groove,and I think I heard some George Benson in that tune.Could be wrong.....but it jamed.Again just my thoughts.


Dean,

Glad you enjoyed the tribute, my friend. And I hope that my comments didn't come across as too critical. Each of us has every right to be moved and to be moved "emotionally" by anything that we hear. Different strokes for different folks, but the inference that an artist automatically has paid his dues in the blues and jazz arena is something that I simply don't buy, even if he's working with an established player or is put on a lofty jazz pedestal by a "supposedly" credible jazz publication. For me, it takes as little as a couple of notes to underline the truth about a player, but that's because I really do LOVE the blues and can instantly detect if the player in question shares that lifelong affinity. All for now...

- Mark
_________________
"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the things I really like about this site,is the right to disagree with respect.I have never been one to agree ,just to agree.I like a good debate ,and if one can change my mind ,then cool.I use to ask the person if they really wanted to know what I thought ,when someone would ask me a direct question.Sometimes the answer would not be what they wanted to hear.If they got up set ,I would just say ,you asked for a honest answer,if you do not like the answer ,do not ask me.Can not be a sheep ,and I am to old to start now.I think it is kind of like a lawyer...if you do not know the answer,do not ask the question.hahaha
_________________
What don't kill you makes you stronger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
before long he was inspired to follow my lead and transcribe Wes, Benson, Martino, and many other fine jazzers steeped in the blues tradition



That is some really good playing on the S.O.S tune.
_________________
sincerely yours,

Todd
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mel1



Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel Loueke does not appear to present himself as a jazz player. He is from West Africa and is bringing the West African sound to western improvisational music. He does not have a jazz sound but more of a world music sound. I do not think he is trying to play jazz as we know it.

Although he has played with jazz artists or jazz artists playing pop, I think that his world music sound was the basis of his being hired to play with these groups.

One problem I see is that today any improvisational music is put in the jazz category. Just becuase it is improvisational does not mean it is jazz. Go a jazz festival and you will see what I mean.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Urs Helfenstein



Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Lucerne, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mark, dear forum members

First I was quite surprised by your reactions when I brought up Lionel Loueke. But I see: My introduction was misleading. For me he’s Blues rooted and stands in the tradition in a certain way. I try to explain what I mean.
The Blues thing first: Okay, I agree, he’s not at all a Blues player in the sense of that he’s regularly working with the Blues language. He’s not playing Blues licks. But: I’m from Europe, and maybe because of that my understanding of Blues might be a little bit different from yours. For me Blues has much to do with expressing feelings and attitudes. When you’re from the US it might be that the Blues language is just the right thing to express yourself. When you’ve got another background it might be different. When you really try to express yourself it can be necessary to mix up the Blues with your own language. If you don’t do so, then you risk to end up as a clone. Starting with Django Reinhardt people from Europe have always played the Blues in their own way (and if not, they mostly didn’t find that what every great player in Jazz has: an own voice) and so it’s clear to me that somebody from Africa tries to express himself with his own language. When he works with his patterns and repeats them and creates a certain mood by that: Then I hear a connection to the (traditional) blues.

mel1 wrote:

Quote:
Lionel Loueke does not appear to present himself as a jazz player. He is from West Africa and is bringing the West African sound to western improvisational music. He does not have a jazz sound but more of a world music sound. I do not think he is trying to play jazz as we know it.


That’s not wrong. But: What’s about Dizzy’s cooperation with Chano Pozo which brought us some great Afro-Cuban inspired Jazz? Or what’s about the whole Bossa Nova movement? A. C. Jobim wasn’t a Jazz musician when you make the circle so narrow! Jazz had always the power to integrate very different influences like pop music or music from other cultures or even traditional classical music. So what made Jobim to an important figure in Jazz history? It was his collaboration with Jazz musicians (like Stan Getz). And I think it’s about the same with Lionel Loueke. I mean: How could somebody who works regularly with people who are part of the Jazz tradition stand outside the tradition? When he works with Herbie Hancock he has always to react to the music of somebody who is an important voice in Jazz. Okay, because of this fact Loueke doesn’t automatically become an important person too. But I think he takes the same way as Jazz musicians always did: He’s working with elder cats and tries at the same time to develop his own way of playing.
And now what’s about the S.O.S tune Mark shared with us? That’s great, no doubt, and I hope very much I’ll hear more of this guy who’s playing here. It’s just different approach than Loueke’s. But: What’s the problem with it? Just let’s take the best of both worlds! As I tried to explain: I understand Jazz as a very open genre. There have been people who said about the Bebop pioneers that they were just noodling and creating no melodies, so we shouldn’t make the same fault today!

Urs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: Blues & Jazz Reply with quote

Urs Helfenstein wrote:
The Blues thing first: Okay, I agree, he’s not at all a Blues player in the sense of that he’s regularly working with the Blues language. He’s not playing Blues licks. But: I’m from Europe, and maybe because of that my understanding of Blues might be a little bit different from yours. For me Blues has much to do with expressing feelings and attitudes. When you’re from the US it might be that the Blues language is just the right thing to express yourself. When you’ve got another background it might be different.


Urs,

This boils down to one's definition of blues, and jazz for that matter. I would never insinuate that a player lacks feeling just because they are missing the essential elements of traditional blues harmony, as passed down by generations of great players associated with that genre. And it's not a matter of whether you're from Europe or America, because there are excellent examples of players from your own neck of the woods who really do understand traditional blues and respect it enough to have done their homework, and to incorporate those elements into their playing. The names that spring to mind are my good friends Ulf Wakenius and Andreas Oberg. Both are brilliant blues-oriented jazz players from Sweden, even superior to the majority of American jazz guitarists when it comes to blending traditional blues that they absorbed in the same manner that Kenny Burrell and George Benson (among others) did before them.

Django was a superb improviser in his own right, and played with a great deal of feeling, but was certainly not cut from the blues cloth. I could make the same case for many domestic players who haven't followed the advice of jazz trumpet legend, Clark Terry: "Imitate, Assimilate, and Innovate." Clark is a master of the blues language, as was Wes, Miles, Trane, Bird, Oscar, and so many others.

Traditional blues is at the very foundation of jazz music, so while it remains anyone's perogative to avoid imitating and assimilating those elements, the result has never been something that really rings my bell as a listener. If those elements are missing, it doesn't mean that the feeling in the music doesn't exist, but I would never choose to classify it as "blues-oriented."

I happen to know that you really do enjoy the blues, so as I said above, this is strictly a matter of definitions. When it comes to jazz, some feel that any effort that involves spontaneous improvisation is automatically classified as jazz. I don't see things that way, because to me jazz devoid of blues just seems rather empty, esoteric, and lacking those foundational elements that drew me to the music so many years ago.

But, hey... that's just me, and I fully respect anyone's right to see things differently. All for now...

- Mark
_________________
"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Vision Music Forum Index -> Guitar: Blues, Jazz & Beyond All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group