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The Future of Jazz Guitar
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jlc



Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

"In other words, if I am not moved emotionally due to the absence of that critical trait, then it becomes boring and I will rarely listen to it more than once or twice. There is something that Christian, Montgomery, Benson, Burrell, Green, Martino, and others cut from that cloth have in common that transcends intellectualism in jazz, and makes their music SO appealing to the vast majority of listeners and players."



It is either that note or phrase your expect to hear or don't expect to hear but sounds just right and draws you in and you say or feel yeah.

i wish i had it, that ability.

I was playing "Blues in the Night", what a great old standard, blues, jazz song, a great spring board, i might have had an oh yeah, pentatonic moment once or twice with this one.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Blues in Jazz Reply with quote

jlc wrote:
It is either that note or phrase your expect to hear or don't expect to hear but sounds just right and draws you in and you say or feel yeah.

i wish i had it, that ability.

I was playing "Blues in the Night", what a great old standard, blues, jazz song, a great spring board, i might have had an oh yeah, pentatonic moment once or twice with this one.


JLC,

For the record, those great players that I mentioned weren't born with the ability to play blues, but they did love and respect it enough to work hard at acquiring the language required to play it well. And from a soloing perspective, blues harmonically is much more than the "just add water" pentatonic scale. Wink

Footnote to Urs...

Regarding your comments about jazz fusing with other styles? Yes, you are absolutely right, although when it comes to something like the music of Jobim (I play almost all of his compositions), I consider it jazz-influenced, but more latin music and not jazz per se.

My only concern about expanding the definition of jazz to include and embrace everything creative is something that my father once told me, which is that it's easy to play anything without having a foundation and then just stick a jazz label on it for the lack of a better word. Like I said before, this comes down to personal definitions and the kind of jazz that I prefer, with all due respect to the efforts of others who are missing the blues and core jazz language elements that I consider critical.

- Mark
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are plenty of young players out there that can play jazz in its finest tradition and then some! I heard a 28 year old guitarist in Ft. Myers Fla last year that blew me away, awesome. He was playing in a trio, guitar, bass and drums. Great young players are all over the place. Because of my job, I get to see how things are going musically all over the western hemisphere. I saw a Mexican guitarist at a resort in Play del Carmen that was killer. The guy played everything from jazz to country and did it all very well. His jazz chops were incredible. I think the problem is the lack of venues and promotion. In Houston, the fourth largest city in the country, we only have four places to play. One is a straight ahead club that holds 50 people max, the next is a club owned by guitarist Joe Carmouche, it holds about 30 or 40 and is only big enough for a duo. The gig pays $65. The other two clubs are more funk, smooth jazz and r&b. There was a fifth club that went out of business five months ago. I have played in all of these clubs except Cezannes and I can say from personal experience the state of jazz in Houston is very bad. Even the local smooth jazz station went off the air. In the late seventies and early 80's when I was playing full time, I couldn't get time off. EVERY bar, hotel, restaurant, and party had live music. I played five nights a week and did double headers on the weekends. Those times are long gone with Karaoke and DJ's; the gigs are gone. No gigs, no following, no records, no promotion. Sam Doman, one of my mentors heard Wes playing in Indy when he was on the road in the late 50's. He went home and told everybody in Cleveland about this awesome player and pretty soon van loads of musicians were driving over there to see Wes. Wes developed a following, played more places and was able to make records that sold because people new who he was. I think then talent garnered success. Now promotion and sales drive the talent. I think some of the name players touted today are pretty sad, but they sell CD's. The players are out there, they just can't get the exposure IMHO. Our sax player, Brian Best, recently got a job as a gopher in a law office. He can't make enough with music to pay rent and buy food. This kid (24) is one of the premier players in Houston. He could be great, but not if he can't play full time. So, we will probably never hear the great guitarists that are out there, they can't get enough time off from Wal Mart to kick start their careers.

Dave
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Mark
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Jazz Reality Check Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
Our sax player, Brian Best, recently got a job as a gopher in a law office. He can't make enough with music to pay rent and buy food. This kid (24) is one of the premier players in Houston. He could be great, but not if he can't play full time. So, we will probably never hear the great guitarists that are out there, they can't get enough time off from Wal Mart to kick start their careers.


Dave,

Great, highly-informative post, my friend. Thanks for sharing, especially from someone who's not only a fine jazz guitarist but who's commercial flying gig provides a broader perspective than anyone else I know.

And Brian? Truly a brilliant saxophonist in my book, and the fact that he has to get some flunky job just to get by really paints an accurate picture of trying to make a living as a jazz musician nowadays. Thank God he's single. Could you imagine if he had a family to support?

- Mark
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for those kind comments Mark. When I read through all of the posts on this subject I was kind of surprised by some peoples perception of blues and jazz. Some of the players that were talked about have absolutely no blues background, or if they do I can't hear one note of it in their recordings. Yet, they are touted to be from those roots. I think a lot of times those claims are put up in liner notes and interviews to broaden their audience. I mean, I can hear a guitarist and immediately figure out what style he or she is playing, even if he is a marginal player. Blues, fusion, rock, bebop, smooth jazz, classical etc. they have a distinct sound and note sequence. How can anyone listen to some of these players and hear blues or straight ahead jazz in their playing when it isn't there in any way, shape or form?

Dave
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave;

Thanks for you reply on this subject matter. I have lived in three cities. St. Louis, Gainesville FL and now Cincinnati. It appears in these cities, Jazz Concert series bringing outside talent at local clubs gets the most attendance, however the regular local day to day gigs are just as you described.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Blues & Jazz Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
Thank you for those kind comments Mark. When I read through all of the posts on this subject I was kind of surprised by some peoples perception of blues and jazz. Some of the players that were talked about have absolutely no blues background, or if they do I can't hear one note of it in their recordings. Yet, they are touted to be from those roots. I think a lot of times those claims are put up in liner notes and interviews to broaden their audience. I mean, I can hear a guitarist and immediately figure out what style he or she is playing, even if he is a marginal player. Blues, fusion, rock, bebop, smooth jazz, classical etc. they have a distinct sound and note sequence. How can anyone listen to some of these players and hear blues or straight ahead jazz in their playing when it isn't there in any way, shape or form?


Dave,

I really do think it comes down to definitions regarding both the word "blues" and the word "jazz." I mean... you can play with feeling without possessing the traditional blues language potential with any genre. The problem for me on that front is that most musicians play with some degree of feeling, whether or not they can play the blues, but all of my heroes and mentors based their feeling and soulfulness in the blues and through a career spent imitating their influences. And I'm not talking "lip service" or a couple of blues clichés here and there. I mean a deep and sincere love for the blues. Wes had that, as did Bird, Trane, Miles, Monk, and most of the great legends of jazz. Even a quick glance at their vast sea of song compositions proves how much they loved the blues. I must know at least 15-20 original blues heads by Parker alone, so one gets the distinct impression that he was seriously playing the blues every single day of his life.

And then there's the matter of how "Jazz" gets defined. Is it a genre that is SO all encompassing that anyone who improvises anything is therefore considered a jazz musician? Does that mean that all of the fusion guys who can't play blues or even play through changes are jazz musicians? Perhaps the late Jerry Garcia should be considered a jazz musician, too. After all, he improvised and did so spontaneously, right? Wink

Anyway, I may be more of a traditionalist at heart when it comes down to blues and jazz definitions, because like yourself if I don't detect elements of core language it does very little for me. I've always considered myself a "blues guy" first and foremost, but one who can bring the blues to other playing styles, including jazz. With all due respect to the creativity of others, it's what I like to hear and what I like to play. All for now...

- Mark
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Brad Kinder



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:06 am    Post subject: Re: A "Great" Young Player? Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
S.O.S. was composed and recorded several years ago by A.G. Donnaloia,...


That sounded fantastic! Great tone and very tasteful playing there. Thanks for sharing.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: A "Great" Young Player? Reply with quote

Brad Kinder wrote:
That sounded fantastic! Great tone and very tasteful playing there. Thanks for sharing.


Brad,

Glad you dug it, blues man! Okay, I've got a cool pair of A.G. stories and an original bebop blues tribute to share with you and everyone else.

I met A.G. when he was a teenager and through his girlfriend, who was taking guitar lessons with me at the time. Emily kept raving about this sensational local blues guitarist/boyfriend who was slipping through the backdoor of local blues clubs here to sit in with the older Portland blues junkies. One of those vets was Robbie Laws, perhaps the best blues guitarist in the Pacific Northwest (who also studied with me for years).

Anyway, according to Emily, A.G. was getting into jazz and kept talking to her about the importance of scales, modes, arpeggios, etc. I told her to tell him for me that he didn't know what the hell he was talking about, and to stop by so we could meet and blow it out. We got together shortly afterwards, jammed and then he began studying with me. I'm really proud of him, because he really "got it" when it came to path/work ethic and soon was furiously transcribing Wes, Benson, and Martino. You can hear the results in that track, which was recorded a few years ago.

So that's the first story of how we crossed paths. The second story is pretty funny. During a lesson we were jamming, trading solos back and forth on Tenor Madness (swing blues in Bb) at high speed, when A.G. started to play this chromatic lick that's part of a short II-V that most of my jazz students would recognize. Straight pull-off from Ab to F on the B string. Well, he missed the target by a fret, moving from G to E instead, and then immediately laughed at himself for making the mistake. However, what I caught was how cool his mistake sounded, so I wrote a riff-based bebop blues tribute to him on the spot, based directly on that lick.

Hope you enjoy this midi piano trio version of The Coming of A.G. Note how the chromatic lick rears it's head, followed by a second lick to bring the harmony back inside. Call & response chord punches throughout. One of numerous tributes and about a hundred original blues compositions to date.

- Mark
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corky4strings



Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 109
Location: plain, pa.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark i was checking out carol kayes web site. she has a link from the namm show of her and george benson jaming, i never knew that she also played great guitar, her and george were smokin.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Carol Kaye Reply with quote

corky4strings wrote:
mark i was checking out carol kayes web site. she has a link from the namm show of her and george benson jaming, i never knew that she also played great guitar, her and george were smokin.


Corky,

The fact that she's always used a pick on the bass (something I rarely do) is a dead giveaway to her guitar roots. I saw her for the first time many years ago at the Cow Palace (SF Bay Area), and at one point considered her as a member of our Teacher Feature guest faculty.

Carol has a very "interesting" personality, to say the least. Where's the link to her and GB? I don't doubt that one pf them was smokin, and you know who I'm talking about. Wink I didn't see the link at her site. Hmm...

- Mark
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jlc



Joined: 03 May 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark

this is a link NAMM 2006


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R9F3oLPL0M
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:36 am    Post subject: Re: Carol Kaye Reply with quote

jlc wrote:
This is a link NAMM 2006


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R9F3oLPL0M


Corky,

Thanks for the link. Although her sound was buried and the camera was on GB playing rhythm during her solo, she sounded decent and with all due respect to her bass credits, it left no doubt in my mind which instrument I'd rather hear her playing Wink. George? Well, smokin' as usual!

- Mark
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memorary



Joined: 20 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps, I might not add anything new to this discussion, I just would like to share a personal experience: On Friday, I checked out an annual jazz festival that takes place in my hometown. It split in two halves (two bands, a break, and two more bands). The first band of each part was somewhat avant-garde, and believe it or not, I noticed quite an unpleasant silence and a lack of interest in the auditorium. The other two bands, on the other hand, received a warm welcome, apparently because they did not play for themselves and their own satisfaction, but because they opened up and play for the audience, even showing much more respect for the crowd. The evening was closed by Mike Stern who is by all who have seen him known for his outstanding showmanship and generally, he is a nice guy. If my memory serves me well, he has been mentioned here as one of the bad guys, and terrible intellectuals. I have to disagree... Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Good Guys, Bad Guys Reply with quote

memorary wrote:
The evening was closed by Mike Stern who is by all who have seen him known for his outstanding showmanship and generally, he is a nice guy. If my memory serves me well, he has been mentioned here as one of the bad guys, and terrible intellectuals. I have to disagree... Wink


Jiri,

Thanks for chiming in and sharing. Hmm.. I don't recall seeing the term "bad guys" used in conjunction with Mike Stern or any other artist for that matter, at least not in this topic. Who we might prefer more than others and why is purely a subjective issue, but certainly one worth discussing.

For instance, as much as I may talk about my affinity for the blues, the truth is that I possess a fairly eclectic background, and obviously most of the classical, folk, and latin side of what I play and compose has little to do with the blues genre per se. However, I do believe that the soulfulness that emanates from my blues experience and love for that genre has had a profoundly positive effect on other things that I do.

Btw, as much as I prefer blues-oriented players like Burrell or my main jazz mentor, the late Oscar Peterson, I've met a number of players who don't care for them for the same reason that I do. Perfectly cool in my book. Different strokes...

- Mark
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