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Rhythmic Subdivisions

 
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject: Rhythmic Subdivisions Reply with quote

Mark, From transcribing Robben Ford solos, I've noticed that Robben subdivides the beat. When he plays an eighth note followed by an eighth rest, the eighth note is exactly one-half of one beat. This really gives the solo rhythmic vitality. I think bass players do this too. What are your thoughts on this, and how would you practice it?
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lenny, are trying to describe syncopation or syncopated rhythm? I'm not quite clear. Confused
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really talking about the use of silence, which can occur at any part of the beat. Let's say that Robben plays an eighth note followed by an eighth rest, starting on the downbeat of three. The first eighth note cuts off exactly after one-half beat. There is silence for the second half of the beat, which begins exactly on the upbeat of three. The silence provides rhthmic clarity. Some players don't do this so precisely.
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Larry_DC



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lenny,

Are you referring to what put the bop in bebop?
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Larry,

I wasn't specifically referring to bop, although some players can make quarter notes swing by playing them as a quarter note triplet articulation followed by an eighth note triplet rest. I'm really talking about using silence (rests) as a rhythmic device. IMHO, the master of that is Robben Ford, and he's doing it in a blues/rock setting. Lots of bass players do it with popular music too. Mark, what are your thoughts on this subject?
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
I'm really talking about using silence (rests) as a rhythmic device. IMHO, the master of that is Robben Ford, and he's doing it in a blues/rock setting. Lots of bass players do it with popular music too. Mark, what are your thoughts on this subject?


Lenny,

Sorry I didn't chime in sooner, but it sounds as though what you're describing is the way Robben (and so many blues-oriented saxophonists as well as bassists) interpret 8ths in an R&B context. Traditionally, in the spirit of players like Junior Walker, Isaac "King" Curtis, Tom Scott, and a host of others, there are most certainly plenty of subtle rests involved. Especially on the off beats, where 8ths are normally staccato (held short) to one degree or another.

For instance, one of the most popular all-time sax moves that escapes the attention of many guitarists (unlike Robben, who plays sax and has been heavily influenced by horn players), is to use simple pentatonic figures to push the groove.

Try playing an A minor pentatonic scale, starting with the low A at the 5th fret. Start on the beat and using 8th notes exclusively, play that A once but every successive note in the scale (C, D, E, G, etc) twice. Play all notes on the beat legato and with a little vibrato, but cut all notes on the off beats short by releasing pressure with the left-hand finger. It sounds simple but it actually takes practice, because most guitarists I've taught tend to play the pairs of indentical tones on the beat, not off and leading into the next beat. Btw, in scoring these figures I normally opt to leave out the rests and use a dot over the shortened note to make sight-reading life easier. Wink

Now, how staccato is a matter of personal choice, but it's one of the most powerful techniques I've gleaned from years of transcribing and playing along with those players until it's become second nature. This is mainly applied to grooves at 120 bpm or less.

On the other hand, in swing jazz or bebop you just change the math to quarter notes, and often in that scenario I will apply the phrasing beyond pentatonic licks to major 7th arpeggios and such, all blended within the context of the solo. I might be able to dig up some clips to share with you guys, based on my past recordings.

I believe that the other reason why this technique escapes the attention of most guitarists is their penchant to play phrases where a note is rarely reiterated, a technique that is a mainstay of great horn solos. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark. Great information.

I was actually referring to a real subtlety. Yes, Robben uses stacatto, but when he cuts off a note, ne cuts it off rhythmically. So, for example, if he's playing a stacatto quarter, he cuts it off right on the upbeat, making it last exactly an eighth note.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: More timing thoughts... Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Thanks Mark. Great information.

I was actually referring to a real subtlety. Yes, Robben uses stacatto, but when he cuts off a note, he cuts it off rhythmically. So, for example, if he's playing a stacatto quarter, he cuts it off right on the upbeat, making it last exactly an eighth note.


Lenny,

What you describe is precisely what I am talking about, or very close. The inference in calling a quarter note "staccato" is that it would in fact be an 8th note where the length gets cut directly in half, as you're saying is the case with RF.

However (and you and others may find this very interesting), when I first got involved with MIDI many years ago, everything was a numbers game in terms of note sustains, depending on the resolution selected. Keyboard players involved with MIDI tended to use a very high rez, typically dividing one beat into 96 steps/clocks. Being that math was my worst subject in school Wink, I chose a much lower rez (24) instead.

Here's where the plot thickens...

Sustain is measured by how long a note lasts, with 95 being the max at high rez and 23 the max at low rez. What you describe in RF's tendency would be smack dab in the middle (48 or 12). What I always found fascinating is how our ears make subconcious decisions regarding sustains that can be measured by these numbers. For instance, my ear happened to like and accept walking bass quarter notes at approximately 19 steps, so obviously a little staccato. As I would compose original melodies, bass lines, model solos, etc in MIDI, there would be a certain "sweet spot" that was purely determined by ear but measured by the resolution. If it was off by just a step or two, there was a noticeable difference.

What I learned from that experience is just how inexact written notation happens to be. When you say "staccato" or "legato," just how short or long is a subjective issue, which is why you really have to hear the music to get it just right. All for now...

- Mark
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Mark.
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