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Transcribing ii-V licks

 
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:09 pm    Post subject: Transcribing ii-V licks Reply with quote

I've heard that many pros think of ii's and V's as the same chord. So when they solo over a d-7 G7 progression, for example, they either think of a d minor chord or a G7 chord. If this is true, can I think of the minor 7 licks and the dominant seventh licks I transcribe as ii-V fodder? I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: Transcribing ii-V licks Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
I've heard that many pros think of ii's and V's as the same chord. So when they solo over a d-7 G7 progression, for example, they either think of a d minor chord or a G7 chord. If this is true, can I think of the minor 7 licks and the dominant seventh licks I transcribe as ii-V fodder? I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.


Lenny,

Since the Dm7 is the first chord encountered in that II-V sequence, I always think/hear D minor rather than G7 to keep things simple. However, if you break down the content of each chord, you'll see that they are close cousins. The notes in a Dm7 (D, F, A, C) spell out a G9sus4 (aka G11), so it's just the C that represents the subtle difference between the two chords.

Even if I'm improvising in a G dominant situation minus the Dm7 chord (e.g. All Blues), I'll superimpose D minor to get a jazzy sound a la Pat Martino, George Benson, Miles Davis, and many others. All for now...

- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark mentioned playing D dorian over Dmin7-G7 (altho I know
Mark would not be caught dead uttering word "dorian" Wink
But if you alter G7 just one bit - raising G to G# to get G#dim7
and start moving that G#dim to equivalent position (by minor 3rd)
and then assuming that resulting dorian scale may apply as well
then suddenly you see that over G7 you can play D-dorian, B-dorian
(G#dim7 move to Fdim7 - equivalent to E7 with B dorian scale over it)
and (same shift) Ab dorian and F dorian.
F dorian in particular is cheap way to alter G7 lick - by repeating your
Dm7 lick just a minor 3rd up.
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Dorian & "Cheap" Tricks Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
Mark mentioned playing D dorian over Dmin7-G7 (altho I know Mark would not be caught dead uttering word "dorian" Wink
But if you alter G7 just one bit - raising G to G# to get G#dim7 and start moving that G#dim to equivalent position (by minor 3rd) and then assuming that resulting dorian scale may apply as well then suddenly you see that over G7 you can play D-dorian, B-dorian (G#dim7 move to Fdim7 - equivalent to E7 with B dorian scale over it) and (same shift) Ab dorian and F dorian. F dorian in particular is cheap way to alter G7 lick - by repeating your Dm7 lick just a minor 3rd up.


JT,

<LOL> If you recall our first lesson and my reference to dorian you know that's not the case. However, the BIG problem and potential disaster is when a player fails to recognize that the term is a very general reference to capture a desired sound.

For instance, if I'm playing over Dm7 (or G7, Fmaj7, Bm7b5, E7alt) and refer to D dorian, you'll hear me consistently play notes outside of those seven tones to great effect, like Gb, Ab, Bb, Eb, and C# (the remaining five notes that would add up to a chromatic scale). So many players who think in terms of scales and modes miss the core language as a result, leaving them with empty-sounding phrases. That's why I discourage scale thinking, because I've witnessed where it leads minus the critical vocabulary that all of the great players possessed and gleaned via imitation.

As far as the "cheap trick" of moving a D minor phrase a minor third or flat five away over the G7 chord? Two things: 1) If it was good enough for Bird it's good enough for yours truly Wink and 2) It creates "call & response" phrasing and dialogue, two of the most desireable traits in any solo. Ciao...

- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Dorian & "Cheap" Tricks Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

<LOL> If you recall our first lesson and my reference to dorian you know that's not the case. However, the BIG problem and potential disaster is when a player fails to recognize that the term is a very general reference to capture a desired sound.


Completely agree on "desired sound" issue - I reopened the folder with
out "Swing Blues" lessons recently and instead of sitting there and trying
to play licks exactly as written (notes and fingering) I started playing
with them - for example:
1. take "Dm7" part and and play it in few different positions
2. see if some of those positions suggest different "G7" completion
(maybe G7 part from diff lick or modified one - different alteration)

So very quickly you move beyond "play the notes as written" to
"play the notes that sound good". And yes I may think in scales term
like eg. "ok - that part is really dorian and I know how to play dorian
arpeggio - and maybe move it by minor 3rd" and then "ok - so this is
diminished 7th arpeggio - lets move it by minor 3rd and see if it
connects better" but really only in addition to trying to play things
that sound good - as additional source of ideas.

Mark wrote:

As far as the "cheap trick" of moving a D minor phrase a minor third or flat five away over the G7 chord? Two things: 1) If it was good enough for Bird it's good enough for yours truly Wink and 2) It creates "call & response" phrasing and dialogue, two of the most desireable traits in any solo. Ciao...
- Mark


I knew it! Bird was just a cheap 3-semi-tone hustler Wink
And yes - call and response - thanks for reminding me - that is why
we need to practice playing blues everyday. And try to play very few
notes - then you cannot hide behind some meaningless flurries - you
either saying something with the instrument or not. And easiest way to
give music that talking quality is call-response.
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