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How Important Is Reading Skill?
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I had to make the choice I would probably choose transcribing over reading as a learning tool, but I would also encourage anyone to do both. Being a learned musician without knowing how to read is obviously possible given the great players mentioned before, but for us mere mortals the benefits from reading are too useful to be ignored.
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larry_DC wrote:
If I had to make the choice I would probably choose transcribing over reading as a learning tool, but I would also encourage anyone to do both. Being a learned musician without knowing how to read is obviously possible given the great players mentioned before, but for us mere mortals the benefits from reading are too useful to be ignored.


Larry,

"Mere mortals?" Laughing I understand how you feel, yet at the same time the reality is that those guys worked harder than anyone to acquire their skill. However, the one thing I will add is that if guitar wasn't part of the equation and we were discussing the same subject around horn players or pianists, the idea of reading and writing wouldn't even be in question. And since my dad was a trombonist and my influences are heavily non-guitar, reading and writing the language has always been a "no brainer" for me.

Oh, and finally... as I've often said (and may have already stated in this thread Wink ), guitarists are notoriously weak when it comes to phrasing and rhythmic inventiveness. If you choose influences who phrase well, part of what you learn by writing what you hear is how to comprehend complex syncopations that I truly believe escape 90% or more of the guitarists I meet and/or coach. So when people ask me about improving their phrasing or how I've managed to come up with so many rhythmic twists in the heads and bass lines I've composed over the years, I point directly to my transcribing efforts and my mentors as the source for that creative ability.

Bottom line? You become what you practice, which is more and more obvious to me with each passing day. All for now...

- Mark
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Brad Kinder



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm reading more and more these days and getting better at it...slowly. It's been time well spent imo. There's just a ton of great printed music out there to learn from. I've been working out of the Barry Galbraith books and they've just helped me tremendously. The bebop bible by Les Wise is another that's only standard notation that I've gotten great ideas from. Definitely a skill worth having and developing.
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad Kinder wrote:
I'm reading more and more these days and getting better at it...slowly. It's been time well spent imo. There's just a ton of great printed music out there to learn from. I've been working out of the Barry Galbraith books and they've just helped me tremendously. The bebop bible by Les Wise is another that's only standard notation that I've gotten great ideas from. Definitely a skill worth having and developing.


Brad,

When I was first getting into sight-reading (late 60's) the market for guitar was literally a ghost town. I mean, there was almost nothing to be found outside of Mel Bay and Alfred's basic lesson series for a guitarists wishing to develop their reading ability. I ended up using trumpet books, violin and clarinet books, the Lennie Niehaus sax series, etc, etc.

Nowadays the market is glutted for guitarists, and unfortunately (with the exception of that book by Les Wise and a few others), much of it is utterly useless and a waste of time. But as an aspiring player/student, how would you really know without buying book after book to find out for yourself?

My question to you and others is "Are you writing anything on a daily basis?" By anything I mean simple licks, solos, lead sheets, etc? Why I ask is because I spent years laboring through books in order to improve my sight-reading and saw very little progress, but once I started writing even 10-15 minutes a day my reading improved more in a few weeks than it had in the previous year. This is one of the best-kept secrets that elude almost every guitarist I meet, but it only takes a week or two to discover that what I'm saying is true.

Btw and speaking of great books, don't miss "Improvisational Patterns: The Bebop Era" by David Baker. I believe Vol. III is devoted to II-V's based on his many years of transcribing, and the volume of quality content goes far beyond the Les Wise book. Til next time...

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark said:

Quote:
Why I ask is because I spent years laboring through books in order to improve my sight-reading and saw very little progress, but once I started writing even 10-15 minutes a day my reading improved more in a few weeks than it had in the previous year.


Mark, I couldn't agree more where rhythms are concerned. Figuring out rhythms is a great way to commit the way patterns sound to memory.
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Brad Kinder



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

My question to you and others is "Are you writing anything on a daily basis?"
- Mark


I haven't written much down in a long time. I should definitely get back into the habit.

Mark wrote:

Btw and speaking of great books, don't miss "Improvisational Patterns: The Bebop Era" by David Baker. I believe Vol. III is devoted to II-V's based on his many years of transcribing, and the volume of quality content goes far beyond the Les Wise book. Til next time...
- Mark


Thanks for the tip...I've heard a lot of good things about his books and will check it out.

Anyone ever worked with the Galbraith books? It's the 5 book series sold through Aebersold's site. I have them all but have worked most out of the Comping book. It's just him comping through a few standards, blues, rhythm changes etc... but there's some very nice chord work to learn. A cd of him and Milt Hinton playing through the tunes also. good stuff!
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


Btw and speaking of great books, don't miss "Improvisational Patterns: The Bebop Era" by David Baker. I believe Vol. III is devoted to II-V's based on his many years of transcribing, and the volume of quality content goes far beyond the Les Wise book. Til next time...

Mark,

I quickly searched around the net, seems the Aerbersold web site is the
only place the David Baker 3 volume set is available.

vol 1
http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DB1-KEY&Category_Code=

vol 2
http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DB2-KEY&Category_Code=

vol 3
http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DB3-KEY&Category_Code=

-Kb

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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kbgtr001 said:


Quote:
I quickly searched around the net, seems the Aerbersold web site is the
only place the David Baker 3 volume set is available.


I found the same. Out of curiosity, does anyone know why volume one is so much more expensive than the other volumes?
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:06 am    Post subject: Re: "Improvisational Patterns" Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
I found the same. Out of curiosity, does anyone know why volume one is so much more expensive than the other volumes?


Len,

Good question, beyond the fact that the first volume has almost twice the number of pages as the other two. Unfortunately, the two editions I own are in storage and not available for the sake of accurate specifics. However, what I can tell you is that the one that features long II-V's organized by starting pitch relative to the IIm7 (Dm7) chord is incredibly valuable. In retrospect I would have paid hundreds of dollars for what I was able to glean from it, so how's that for a recommendation? Laughing

The other book in the series that I have features short II-V's instead. Not as valuable but still a "must have" for any inspiring jazz improviser. The additional volume, if I recall, contains common phrases but not II-V's per se. Just order all three, because I've purchased and gone through many books by David Baker over the years, and this series is hands down his greatest contribution on the core jazz language front. Til next time...

- Mark
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad Kinder wrote:
Anyone ever worked with the Galbraith books? It's the 5 book series sold through Aebersold's site. I have them all but have worked most out of the Comping book. It's just him comping through a few standards, blues, rhythm changes etc... but there's some very nice chord work to learn. A cd of him and Milt Hinton playing through the tunes also. good stuff!

I have the Galbraith Comping book, but not the audio tracks. I'm looking
through it again, appreciating the nice chord progressions it has
to offer. I'll copy out some of the pages and add them to appropriate
places in my music library.

It's hard to find Barry Galbraith recordings, but samples from
'The Complete Barry Galbraith, Milt Hinton & Osie Johnson Recordings' are available @;

http://www.pandora.com/music/album/hal+mckusick/complete+barry+galbraith+milt+hinton+osie+johnson+recordings

He was a 'monster sight reader' and primo session guitarist in New York
in the 1950's and 1960's.

a brief bio @ classicjazzguitar.com;

http://classicjazzguitar.com/artists/artists_page.jsp?artist=14

Andy Polon, a Barry Galbraith guitar student in the late 1970s, has posted
some Galbraith's handwritten arrangements for students @;

http://andypolon.com/BG/BGdefault.html

The handwritten pages are difficult to read.

-kb

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Brad Kinder



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amazing how deep that little book really is...each chorus he just keeps building and throwing in more and more ideas. One thing I really wish he would've added are the vanilla changes. It would be much easier to see where he's coming from on some of those chord subs.

I don't have any Galbraith solo recordings but he has recorded a few that are supposed to be excellent. I believe he made most of his living in NY as an A list session guy for radio and TV productions. There's a cool video on you tube of him comping behind Coleman Hawkins on Lover Man for a mock jam session that was done for TV.

I have his chord melody arrangements that someone cleaned up in Finale. They're online somewhere but I can send them to you if you like.
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad Kinder wrote:
Amazing how deep that little book really is...each chorus he just keeps building and throwing in more and more ideas. One thing I really wish he would've added are the vanilla changes. It would be much easier to see where he's coming from on some of those chord subs...

...I have his chord melody arrangements that someone cleaned up in Finale. They're online somewhere but I can send them to you if you like.

Yes, I did spent some time (a while ago) working through his chord voiceings;
smooth voice leading, 'side steping', passing chords , keeps things in
motion, then the subs. I like that he includes a separate bass line chart for each piece.

Also, I just discovered Galbraith/Hinton sample tracks for the 'Comping' book at the Aebersold web site.
The tracks put the score pages in very different perspective.

At the end of the day though, I really feel this would great book to have if I were studying
(or at least taking a few lessons) with Barry Galbraith directly. I think the
key element is how he builds 'phrases' with chord progressions and works with bass line.
My own take on this, even without a bass player present, he is probably thinking or singing bass line
while working through his chords. I didn't get this from the book until I heard the sample tracks.
The two parts weave together beautifully.

A link to the 'Finale' version of the chord melody arrangements would be excellent.

-Kb
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Brad Kinder



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

found the pdf file here...

http://www.musiccentre.co.uk/acatalog/eBooks/free-guitar-chords/42_chord_melody_arrangements.pdf
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad Kinder wrote:
found the pdf file here...

http://www.musiccentre.co.uk/acatalog/eBooks/free-guitar-chords/42_chord_melody_arrangements.pdf

Too cool....

Thanx Very Happy

-Kb
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad Kinder wrote:

Quote:
found the pdf file here...

http://www.musiccentre.co.uk/acatalog/eBooks/free-guitar-chords/42_chord_melody_arrangements.pdf


Thanks Brad! What a great find. I'm looking forward to playing through these.
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