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No one wants to hear a scale or bad music will make you WEAK

 
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:35 am    Post subject: No one wants to hear a scale or bad music will make you WEAK Reply with quote

Mark recently said about audience experience in another thread
"No one wants to hear a scale". Very true. There was somewhat
troll'ish thread recently on jazz guitar NG discussing Pat Metheny's
comments on Kenny G and essentially, against the prevalent opinion
defending "G-man".

So OK - for the sake of fairness and in the spirit of compassion and
acceptance I opened my ears to Kenny's music and istened to couple
of his tunes on Rhapsody (no I did not buy CD!) - I think one of them
was supposed to be his big hit "Songbird" or something like that.
Hmmmm..... 3 mins into the tune I could feel something evil creeping
into my brain - some idea that all point of views deserve equal
consideration - or that it is elitist to impose standards etc etc.
I tried to find beauty or passion in his music and found only vision of
thermal death of Universe and even that vision came in and shrugged
before disappearing.
But enuff with bad imagery - I think that at that moment I really
understood what Ry Cooder had in mind when he said "bad music
will make you weak". When Kenny went itnto his "overdrive" mode
and started doing his "sheets of sound" I felt sincere need to purge
all those notes from my brain....

On a flipside - couple days ago I listened to several of the best Austin's
folksingers/songwriters doing free b-day concert at local watering hole
for folkies - Cactus Club. One of the performers was Jimmy Lafave
who had a violinist with him on stage - looked like classically trained
kid but it was also obvious that they did not rehearse the material.
They did couple tunes one of them was some old Dylan song - with
fairly steady jingly-jangly guitar beat. But violin was just so nice -
very humbly singing some nice harmonies and counterpoints.
Occasionally quoting phrases from original recording. With rather
simple means - not as simple as scales but not far beyond sequences
and arpeggios. And the effect was that little moment of magic people
listened intently because it was not obvious where the music would go.
So yeah - no scales and no predictability in general - and even simple
music can go long way.

JT

PS. Pat's comments are eg here:
http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm
http://www.jazzguitar.com/features/kennyg.html

I always thought Pat was such a nice guy - to the point of wimpiness
- and here he wants to make smash his Ibanez PM on Kenny's head.
I thought that was very kind - at least he he would not attack him with
a Telecaster of some other deadly solid body instrument Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyK0y02HvVc
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: No one wants to hear a scale or bad music will make you Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
So OK - for the sake of fairness and in the spirit of compassion and acceptance I opened my ears to Kenny's music and istened to couple of his tunes on Rhapsody (no I did not buy CD!)


JT,

For one, I never did quite get PM's tirade against G-Man. Some have even made the case of it being the "pot calling the kettle black." Laughing I suppose it just depends on your point of view.

Anyway, this is all very subjective. While it's true that no one may want to hear a scale, things like passion, conviction, emotion, etc, are what I seek most. I'm not a big fan of either of these artists per se, but there are things about them that I appreciate. Personally I wish PM had more blues and core jazz language in his work and often wonder why he gets put on such a lofty jazz guitar pedestal. However, when he's playing his own music and in his own niche is when he's at his best, at least to me.

With Kenny, the one thing I can say positive about his blur of scale runs is that they're done for effect, as opposed to some players who just play a buzillion notes and never come up for air. There are SO many guitar speed merchants guilty of this tendency, where you get the distinct impression that they're not capable of playing anything slowly and with conviction, or that they slow down out of obligation but it's not sincere. G-Man does know how to play a simple melody with feeling, and he does have a certain degree of blues in his personality. Plus I love two-chord grooves as much as I enjoy changes playing. In either case, he's taken a lot of heat from the snobby, pretentious jazz community, which I think is unfair.

My #1 measurement of how much an artist moves me can be addressed in one simple question: "Would I listen to that song more than once or twice?" If it bears repeated listening, then there's something that resonates for me. If not, then I can appreciate it for what it is but nothing more. Different strokes for different folks, eh? Wink

- Mark
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: No one wants to hear a scale or bad music will make you Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
For one, I never did quite get PM's tirade against G-Man. Some have even made the case of it being the "pot calling the kettle black." Laughing I suppose it just depends on your point of view.

Hmmm.... I did not mean to start open season on Kenny - just used him
as example. Pat was right though when he said that Kenny represent the
worst tendency of recording industry to push lowest common denominator
music on people. Years ago I drove a cab here in Austin and typically
played some jazz tapes in the car. One night I was driving a black woman
who was a nurse in the local hospital - it was later at night and I had
Coltrane's "Ballads" album on. She seemed to enjoyed it and she asked
me who it was but it turned out she never heard the name "Coltrane"
before. She said "He's good - but Kenny G would outblow him".
Why do you think it is?
I am not saying that Kenny G should not have his own niche. Problem
is for me that his niche gobbled all other niches. And noyt exactly because
of his own merits.
You say "would I listen to it twice?" I have stricter criteria - would I listen
to that music if I felt that things in my life are falling apart and had nothing
else in the world to to turn to? And in case of Pat the anser is yes - I listen
to him in some very very dark hours of my life. And there is hope and
beauty in what he does. I admit - not everything he recorded is same
quality - but at his best he is there - all the way - with Coltrane and Miles.
The only way to decide for sure is to invent time machine and fast forward
40 years into the future - and see whose music can transcend generations.
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: No one wants to hear a scale or bad music will make you Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
Pat was right though when he said that Kenny represent the worst tendency of recording industry to push lowest common denominator music on people.


JT,

Correction, my friend. You mean that Pat was right for you and for those who share that opinion. With all due respect to what you would listen to if you felt that things in your life are falling apart and you had nothing else in the world to turn to, not everyone feels that way about PM (different strokes) and some would find the phrase "lowest common denominator music" totally insulting and arrogant as applied to another artist. This is precisely what I meant about the snobbery and pretentiousness that exists among those in the jazz community who consider themselves elite and above others. Very sad and completely unnecessary on his part to speak as such a credible authority, as if his opinion about G-Man's music (as opposed to the state of the recording industry itself) is fact. Sorry, I don't buy it. All for now...

- Mark
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: No one wants to hear a scale or bad music will make you Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
(...)not everyone feels that way about PM (different strokes) and some would find the phrase "lowest common denominator music" totally insulting and arrogant as applied to another artist. This is precisely what I meant about the snobbery and pretentiousness that exists among those in the jazz community(...)


Mark - to begin with I never claimed to be God. Or even expert critic
on jazz music. I am only saying that at some very low point in my life
(many years ago) I listened to Pat's music and found it helpful and
uplifting. It does not mean that would put Pat's album on now for such
reason. I do listen to him every now and then - less than I used to.
I listen more often to T-Bone Walker, Jimmy Smith or Orchestra
Baobab these days. Still - Pat has my respect and gratitude.

I did mean LCD remark as directly applicable to Kenny G although it
use ended upo sounding like that. I was trying to say that it seems the
record companies end up pushing music that will appeal to LCD as far
as listeners taste goes. I can certainly name much worse musicians
than Kenny G. Myself included. So OK - I just speak for myself - I do not
find his music uplifting and I would not recommend listening to it to a
friend that is just getting into jazz.
You can call it arrogant snobbery if you want - it is my opinion - not God's
one. And BTW - I do agree with you as far as "snobbery" and perhaps
to some degree as far as "pretentiousness" as far as some people in
"jazz community". Most people are fine listening to Mozart but will not
describe their experience with eg. Penderecki as "relaxing". It is hard
to escape the fact that generations of musicians explored swing and blues
idioms so thoroughly. Does not mean that the only way to be creative
is to refuse playing anything that you can tap your foot to. Sonny Rollins
comes to mind as example. And yes - to some extent Pat - who created
undeniably unique language and still very accessible one. But as far as
Kenny G goes - I will rather listen to local tenor player - Tamas Ramirez
or go check Jazz Pharaohs at Elephant Room. Or about 30 other local
acts. So OK - I am a snob.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: No one wants to hear a scale or bad music will make you Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
Mark - to begin with I never claimed to be God. Or even expert critic on jazz music. I am only saying that at some very low point in my life (many years ago) I listened to Pat's music and found it helpful and uplifting.


JT.

Look, I think you complete misunderstand me. I'm not referring to you, but PM's comments, which many artists I know believe to be disgusting. I also said that I appreciate his music and look for the good in all players, plus I think it's wonderful that his music filled a critical void for you.

However, the "different strokes for different folks" point is perfectly legitimate. You mentioned God? I believe that when one artist goes out of his way *in public* to personally diss a fellow artist, it strikes me as utterly classless and egotistical, let alone arrogant, as if that person is trying to play God. For whatever negative you can say about G-Man, at least he doesn't do that and has the class and the courtesy to respect his fellow musicians, including PM. That makes me respect him, even if he's not my favorite artist.

Regarding the woman who prefers G-Man to Coltrane? Of course, her saying that Kenny could outplay him shows total ignorance on her behalf, but if she happens to prefer groove music over Ascension or any other form of jazz music, than that's her perogative. And speaking of forms, what G-Man does is as different as night and day when compared to Coltrane or any other mainstream jazz artist, and many would make precisely the same point in comparing PM to Wes, Benson, Burrell, or any other jazz guitarist truly steeped in the tradition of the genre. That's what I meant about "the pot calling the kettle black," an opinion shared by many artists who found PM's criticism over the top.

As far as you are concerned? I don't think you're a snob whatsoever for preferring "a local tenor player or 30 others" over Kenny, because that's your perogative and actually I feel the same way. But if you're going to quote PM's comments about G-Man in public and say that you agree with him, then it's you who are underlining what many feel is unwarranted criticism and inviting a difference of opinion, right? Moving on...

- Mark
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Tony



Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Milwaukie Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read some of the negative articles about Kenny G in the past and while I personally don't care to listen to his playing ( and I have heard him live ) He does sell a lot of music. There are lots of casual listeners out there that seem to think he is great. He is very successful at marketing himself and If you are into music for the money then you could judge his success by that. He is quoted as saying that when he played traditional jazz standards for a living he starved to death. It wasn't until he started playing so called " smooth jazz" that he started making a living. Can we fault him for that ? Heck no ! Trust me, if Kenny G is on the radio I change channels but you never hear him on KMHD do you ?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Smooth Jazz Reply with quote

Tony wrote:
I have read some of the negative articles about Kenny G in the past and while I personally don't care to listen to his playing ( and I have heard him live ) He does sell a lot of music. There are lots of casual listeners out there that seem to think he is great. He is very successful at marketing himself and If you are into music for the money then you could judge his success by that. He is quoted as saying that when he played traditional jazz standards for a living he starved to death. It wasn't until he started playing so called " smooth jazz" that he started making a living. Can we fault him for that ? Heck no ! Trust me, if Kenny G is on the radio I change channels but you never hear him on KMHD do you ?


Tony,

For the record (so to speak Wink ), I believe that JT mentioned he just heard "Songbird" for the first time. That surprised me, because Duotones was G-Man's smash album release WAY back in '87, 22 years ago and during a time period before what was first called Contemporary Jazz (and later Smooth Jazz) took a decided nosedive. And yes, that was due to the radio and recording industry, because once they removed improv from the picture, all of the good things went out the window for me.

While what you and others say about commercial music and making a living playing jazz makes perfect sense in theory, there's also the reality that some artists have always enjoyed that side of jazz and have done it well, at least back in the 70's and 80's. I mean, one of my main mentors, George Benson, was raked over the coals by snobby jazz critics for making recordings like Body Talk and Bad Benson (CTI) in the early 70's, followed by his epic Breezin' a few years later. That one is still the #1 selling record by a jazz guitarist in history, and the famous story is that Downbeat only gave it 1.5 stars. All of those recordings were beyond brilliant in my book, despite the fact that critics expected GB to be another Wes clone. It was never about $$ for Benson, because he was recording pop music in the 60's and not making a dime. He enjoyed it, period. And that dates back to his earliest work as a young teenager doing pop vocals, before he even picked up a guitar.

Because I love grooves and because the music in those decades was still rooted in a blend of blues and jazz improvisation, it was and will always be a viable form of jazz to me. Btw, G-Man wasn't the only saxophonist who was involved back then. Dave Sanborn, Tom Scott, Jay Beckenstein, Dave Koz, etc, etc. All of those cats could and had played traditional jazz, but they wanted to do something different, and guess what? Because they reached a broader range of listeners, many discovered mainstream jazz and its artists though them. It was only when the creative element was removed (over the past 15+ years) that my interest in smooth went south. Like I keep saying, different strokes... Wink

- Mark
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Smooth Jazz Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
For the record (so to speak Wink ), I believe that JT mentioned he just heard "Songbird" for the first time. That surprised me, because Duotones was G-Man's smash album release WAY back in '87, 22 years ago and during a time period before what was first called Contemporary Jazz (and later Smooth Jazz) took a decided nosedive. And yes, that was due to the radio and recording industry, because once they removed improv from the picture, all of the good things went out the window for me.


Interesting. 20 years ago I listened to a lot of Pat M.
Some classic Miles, Coltrane. Some Weather Report.
A lot of Jarrett. And Stan Getz and all kinds of bossa stuff.
And some hmmm... Spyro Gyra...
So I guess I was not always that anti smooth jazz Wink
I think that I simply do not listen to enough jazz on the radio -
just buy CDs and when I do I usually go for classic 50-60 Blue
Note stuff. So I probably missed any kind of evolution in smooth jazz.

Regarding Pat's comments I guess his ire was mostly caused by Kenny
doing overdubbed version of Armstrong's "What A Wonderful World".
He called it "musical necrophilia" and I thought it was funny and out of
character for Pat - I never thought he would demonstrate such genuine
anger. Up to the point that I am still not sure if I believe that he said
everything he allegedly did - including beating Kenny over the head with
his guitar.
BTW - during the Internet boom Austin had some bars aimed at the
high-tech crowd - some martini places with smooth "jazz" - few times
I was in vicinity I heard unmistakeable fast SCALES played by "soloist".
Oh well.... why argue about the precise order of notes - ALL music is
essentially just a slight permutation of chromatic scle right Wink.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: Smooth Jazz Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
Oh well.... why argue about the precise order of notes - ALL music is essentially just a slight permutation of chromatic scale right Wink.


JT,

There is actually some truth to that conclusion, because one of the reasons I try to avoid using too many scale references is the implication that there are right and wrong notes, when great melodies, solos, and licks prove otherwise. It's only if someone haven't been exposed to those core elements that it becomes an issue requiring a theoretical explanation, and since any note can function in any circumstance, "chromatic" works for me. I mean.. why leave anything out? Laughing

- Mark
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great discussion ,I think.I would never put anyone down,because music is what it is.The music industry is a whole different thing.I venture to say most of the best players never get their due in the music industry.It like most things ,it is about money.Thank god players play for the love of music,cause if money was the only factor we would be hurting.I know there is more to the whole thing,but this is just my snap shot of it.
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
Thank god players play for the love of music,cause if money was the only factor we would be hurting.I know there is more to the whole thing,but this is just my snap shot of it.


Coming from Eastern Europe I can tell you that in US music is ridiculously
undervalued. And jazz music even criminally so. When I was growing up
in 70 jazz was treated with pious respect in Poland. People would really
listen to it and treat it like work of beauty. There was a jazz festival
every October in Warsaw - biggest American musicians played there -
from Miles to Keith. After the official sets they would often go to clubs to
jam - standing room only people would be there until 4am.
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JT,I really envy the respect and love of music in other countries.Look how many players had to leave America to play.In a country that will drop three to six hundred dollars on a game,but have a problem with twenty dollars for a three hour show,it is shameful.Everyone I have met from Poland or Germany,have had a great respect for jazz,blues,and many less played forms of music.From your post,you seem to make it a deep and soulful part of your life.Like a religon ,if you will.I have begain to read more and increase my knowledge of music.Music is truly a study of history and passion.
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