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Jazz guitar articulation and relation to phrasing
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billbluesandjazz



Joined: 29 May 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark - when I played guitar, organ and sax in a rock group over 40 years ago I had to play the bass when our bass player was off dallying with a young lady (groupies they were called then!) BTW he is now a highly religious man and doesn't care to be reminded of this!

Being classically trained as a pianist, I taught myself walking bass on the guitar (strings 5 and 6 for bass; strings 3 and 4 for comping) building initially from Freddie Green style 3 note chords to leave two LH fingers free to play the bass line - I always play this with my fingers, putting the pick down or hiding it in my hand.

The guitar need not sound thin in Ornithology - you already use thick strings and an archtop for a full sound - I have experimented (sacrilege I know) with high gain for the head. With a good overdrive pedal you can achieve a singing, full sustain like a sax and with a push of your foot return to a classic jazz tone - of course this works a lot better with a solid body guitar than an archtop where you need to watch out for feedback. Keep the tone control on the guitar rolled right off and you could find another full sound without having to pick up your bass.

Will keep an eye out for your bass line info.

All the best.

Bill
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kbgtr001



Joined: 04 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
billbluesandjazz wrote:
Mark - thanks for that and Have We Met is a cool head - I can see why you play bass too!


...As previously mentioned, my main bass workout used to be playing bebop and blues heads every day, including most of the Parker tunes like this version of the Ornithology head that I recorded some time ago. I teach that tune and many others in my jazz bass course (Lessons by Mail). On guitar these bebop heads sound so thin in comparison to the bass, plus there's an organic aspect of using your fingers instead of a pick.

Btw and on a related note, I will be releasing my "Four On Six: Walking Bass for Jazz Guitar" ebook/mp3 series soon. I have a half-dozen editions ready to go: C Jam Blues, Giant Steps, Sugar, I Got Rhythm, Take the A Train, and Billie's Bounce. Stay tuned...

- Mark

Mark, Bill, and Dean,

Thanks for the great thread; wonderful discussion on Ornithology/How High The Moon.
I have a recording with Jennifer Leitham and Jimmy Bruno (among others too) that I especially like.
Interesting how this 'war horse' can still be 'fresh.' Mark, I think that goes to your point about
the 'conversational' nature of a really good improvisation. If the improv is conversational, a real
dialogue/monologue, then the presentation is exciting; 'fresh.' There is still something to be said.

Mark, is the C Jam Blues bass part available separately now or is it part of the
"Four On Six: Walking Bass for Jazz Guitar" ebook to be released ?

I'm currently developing my my bass technique, following the great advice and
suggestions offered here at VM. At the moment, I'm working with a thumb pick and
fingers. For me, the thumb pick is very comfortable and flexible with down-stoke
articulations and easy to couple with 'right hand' (or 'left hand' in my case Wink ) palm muting.

-Kb
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:09 am    Post subject: Four On Six: Walking Bass (previews) Reply with quote

billbluesandjazz wrote:
Being classically trained as a pianist, I taught myself walking bass on the guitar (strings 5 and 6 for bass; strings 3 and 4 for comping) building initially from Freddie Green style 3 note chords to leave two LH fingers free to play the bass line - I always play this with my fingers, putting the pick down or hiding it in my hand.


Bill,

I've used that same approach for as long as I can remember, even hiding the pick in the first joint of my index finger. If I have an edge on my jazz guitar colleagues in this department, it's due to my bass background and the fact that I've had great upright influences who have taught me the language through transcribing and studying their walks, then adapting them to the guitar. Ray Brown, Ron Carter, Paul Chambers, and Sam Jones are my main mentors, but there have been others. The vast majority of jazz guitarists who comp this way "fake it" harmonically through the simple use of chromatic passing tones and such, but that's not the case with my walks, which I believe are second to none due to such powerful sources. Many aren't aware of this fact, but when I was teaching music full-time in the SF Bay Area prior to '94, over half of my private students were bassists, not guitarists.

Speaking of my influences, here's a preview of the composite graphic (page header) for the new series:



I included Jaco to represent the electric bass and the fact that all of the walks in the series can also be played on that instrument. I'll share a clip of me doing that shortly. Joe's there because it was he who inspired me many years ago to combine my knowledge of bass and my ability to arrange for guitar.

As far as the "thin sound" comment, I'm referring to the traditional jazz guitar tone a la Wes, Pass, Burrell, Martino, GB, etc. Sure, it's always possible to use processing and volume to get a bigger voice, but that doesn't appeal to me when it comes to jazz. Of course, I'm talking more about uptempo, dense bebop tunes like Ornithology and so many others, because if the melody is less active I'm usually following the Wes tradition, employing octaves, double-stops, and chords to get the fatter sound and thicker texture.

kbgtr001 wrote:
Mark, is the C Jam Blues bass part available separately now or is it part of the
"Four On Six: Walking Bass for Jazz Guitar" ebook to be released ?


Kb,

Good to see you over here and glad you're enjoying the thread. Just so you're not confused, FOS is a collection of separate ebooks that will be marketed like my Monster Guitar Solo and Good Vibes Jazz Solo series. Each will come with a companion mp3 audio track to match the documentation. To see a sample ebook cover (Giant Steps), click here.

Btw, each arrangement also includes sections on the use of syncopations (right-hand) and potential voice-leading extensions (left-hand) beyond the shell voicings, so there's going to be enough material and information in any edition to keep most players busy. Wink

The past week or two I've been having some fun creating several jazz guitar duo demos using the walking bass editions and a brush kit, showcasing just one of many possible applications. In this spirited (225 bpm) rendition of Gershwin's classic "I Got Rhythm" I used a brief II-V chord-melody rubato intro to set the stage for the head, played in Wes-style octaves over the walking accompaniment. One-chorus solo, head again and out. The other arrangements range in tempo from about 150 bpm to 200 bpm, but the speed is always flexible.

Hope you dig the demo and the "real deal" bass concepts. If you guys want to hear more, just let me know. Til next time...

- Mark
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billbluesandjazz



Joined: 29 May 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"The past week or two I've been having some fun creating several jazz guitar duo demos using the walking bass editions and a brush kit, showcasing just one of many possible applications. In this spirited (225 bpm) rendition of Gershwin's classic "I Got Rhythm""


Mark - great Rhythm Changes duet - now if you could just play all of that with only one guitar.... then even Martin Taylor would be jealous!

Quote:
" Ray Brown, Ron Carter, Paul Chambers, and Sam Jones are my main mentors"


As you know, Ron Carter was the bass player on Aebersold Vol. 6 All Bird, along with Kenny Barron - so everyone who uses these play-alongs can truly say "I've played solos backed by Ron Carter and Kenny Barron". Of course Ray Brown in the Oscar Petersen trio is justifiably famous for his bass playing, perhaps even outshining Oscar in some tracks (Night Train comes to mind as a seminal recording).

Very interested in your FOS series - keep us up-to-date with progress.

All the best, Bill
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

billbluesandjazz wrote:
Mark - great Rhythm Changes duet - now if you could just play all of that with only one guitar.... then even Martin Taylor would be jealous!

As you know, Ron Carter was the bass player on Aebersold Vol. 6 All Bird, along with Kenny Barron - so everyone who uses these play-alongs can truly say "I've played solos backed by Ron Carter and Kenny Barron". Of course Ray Brown in the Oscar Petersen trio is justifiably famous for his bass playing, perhaps even outshining Oscar in some tracks (Night Train comes to mind as a seminal recording).

Very interested in your FOS series - keep us up-to-date with progress.


Bill,

Thanks, man. I don't know about making Mr. Taylor jealous, though. Laughing On a more serious note related to Rhythm Changes, some time ago I arranged a solo guitar version of the Flintstones Theme that combines melody, walking bass, and chords. I haven't played it in awhile, but will attempt to get it dusted off and recorded. It's pretty cool if I do say so myself.

Yes, I am very aware of Ron's work on the All Bird J/A edition. I was just discussing that with Henry (Johnson) a few days ago. I actually transcribed and studied all of Carter's bass lines from that recording, about six months before a book of those lines was published. However, you always learn the most by transcribing the language yourself, and there are moves that you just heard in my I Got Rhythm walk that are right out of the Ron Carter playbook, but translated to jazz guitar. Sam Jones' work on the Cannonball Adderly J/A edition (Vol. 13) is also superb. Incredible playing and tone. Those recordings are a gold mine for aspiring jazz bassists. For that matter I've also transcribed a lot of keyboard moves from the series and adapted those for guitar, too. To me, the greatest way to achieve a unique voice is to blend influences from multiple sources. Too many players get trapped into only learning from those who play their home instrument.

Okay, Ray Brown? Well, my father (trombonist) had great taste in jazz music. His favorite big band was Basie, his favorite small group was Miles, and his favorite piano trio was Oscar Peterson. That's what I heard when I was very young, and it was Pop who transcribed many of Ray's moves for me long before I was capable of doing so myself. I often joke that thanks to my father's help and Ray Brown I learned to walk before I could run. Wink

Since you brought up one of the all-time epic OP releases (Night Train) and getting back to the upcoming series, check out my recent Bass Talk spin on Ellington's C Jam Blues. Remember how Ray opened up that famous OP Trio track, with a solo bass walk for the first chorus? In this FOS demo showcasing how the arrangements can be translated to bass, it opens with a rubato blues lick to set the stage for a one-chorus walk w/chords, followed by three solo choruses, walk again and out. In a way the track is a nod to Ray, but also to Benson, Oscar, Bird, etc, underlining my point about blending influences. Hope you dig it!

- Mark
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billbluesandjazz



Joined: 29 May 2009
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Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


Yes, I am very aware of Ron's work on the All Bird J/A edition. I was just discussing that with Henry (Johnson) a few days ago. I actually transcribed and studied all of Carter's bass lines from that recording, about six months before a book of those lines was published. However, you always learn the most by transcribing the language yourself, and there are moves that you just heard in my I Got Rhythm walk that are right out of the Ron Carter playbook, but translated to jazz guitar. Sam Jones' work on the Cannonball Adderly J/A edition (Vol. 13) is also superb. Incredible playing and tone.

Since you brought up one of the all-time epic OP releases (Night Train) and getting back to the upcoming series, check out my recent Bass Talk spin on Ellington's C Jam Blues.

- Mark


Mark - another great track - I think that I will learn it on guitar and add some comping!! It may have to wait a while though since I am getting ready to play in Glasgow Jazz Festival Summer School which runs from Wednesday through Sunday.

I am always surprised when people criticise the Aebersold playalongs (see any number of other jazz threads) - of course they cannot interact with a soloist, but better a world class rhythm section than an overloud drummer and insensitive bass and piano players any day!

Bill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill wrote:
Mark - another great track - I think that I will learn it on guitar and add some comping!! It may have to wait a while though since I am getting ready to play in Glasgow Jazz Festival Summer School which runs from Wednesday through Sunday.

I am always surprised when people criticise the Aebersold playalongs (see any number of other jazz threads) - of course they cannot interact with a soloist, but better a world class rhythm section than an overloud drummer and insensitive bass and piano players any day!


Bill,

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the track. I've been sorely tempted to add some guitar parts myself, but after our recent discussion and thinking about my early bass influences, I've decided to rename the track "Home Bass" and let it stand alone as a tribute to Ray Brown. Anyway, I've got way too many guitar recordings as it is. Laughing

Great that you'll be performing at the jazz festival. What's the ensemble context?

I couldn't agree more regarding the J/A playalong series. There are so many misnomers and myths within the jazz community, often perpetuated by those who can "talk shop" but unfortunately can't play very well. The reality is that live interaction is a bit overblown, because even the greatest players rely on past experience and most of what they're going to play is something that they've played before. Therefore when you have jazz veterans like Ron Carter, Kenny Barron and others backing you up, to me the creative challenge is to hopefully match what they bring to the table by reacting to what you are hearing. It's not like they haven't played these tunes countless times in countless scenarios backing up countless performers, right? So your reference to an inferior, interactive rhythm section as an alternative completely makes sense to me. That's like playing with an out-of-tune guitar.

As a couple of cases in point, check out this take on "Misty" that I recorded some time ago. Rubato chord-melody intro followed by the head (Wes-style octaves) against a J/A rhythm section, followed by a solo chorus and return to the head in the final "A" section and out. Many unaware of the backup have said that it sounds like I've been working with "that piano player" for many years, when in reality the pianist is Mark Levine. Wink

During the same time period I used the "Vierd Blues" track from the Miles Davis J/A collection as a basis for "Things Ain't What They Used To Be" by Ellington, with the head again done in octaves. More R&B flavor in the solo on that one, but with call & response chord punches throughout. So in this case I wasn't even using a track for the tune, but one that my ear told me was a perfect fit. The J/A material is great. It's just a matter of what you do with it. All for now...

- Mark
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, love the tracks..this thread has been great for me.Just so you know ,I now have a 4 track portable recorder by boss.It is the micro BR,so hope to share my humble playing skill.hahaha

Bill, you will notice I got a portable unit to record.

Thanks again,Ron
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billbluesandjazz



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark

Thanks again for these tracks - you have been so generous in sharing these with us. The context of the Glasgow jazz workshops is a summer school where we work with well-known jazz musicians over a week, culminating in a public gig on Sunday afternoon. I understand that there are around 30 participants, sax players, trumpeters, pianists, bassists, drummers and of course guitarists among others. Should be fun.

You might like to listen to some classical piano music for a change - I was broadcast last year from a live recording in Glasgow for BBC Radio 3 - you can find the link here

http://www.goodskiguide.com/gsg/index.php/wadale

The link is from a ski mag that I write for from time to time - being journalists they are prone to exaggeration! I had not "just learned the piano" - I have been playing for over 50 years but the tracks are not too bad - they are two pieces from Gabriel Fauré.

Dean - the Boss is a good choice - I have its big brother for multi-tracking.

Bill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

billbluesandjazz wrote:
You might like to listen to some classical piano music for a change - I was broadcast last year from a live recording in Glasgow for BBC Radio 3 - you can find the link here

http://www.goodskiguide.com/gsg/index.php/wadale

The link is from a ski mag that I write for from time to time - being journalists they are prone to exaggeration! I had not "just learned the piano" - I have been playing for over 50 years but the tracks are not too bad - they are two pieces from Gabriel Fauré.


Bill,

Beautiful playing, my friend. We have some fascinating parallels that go well beyond any interest in jazz and blues music. Writing and art were my main loves early on (long before music - "late starter" at 18-19 years old). I composed and distributed a neighborhood newspaper when I was just 8-years-old, 50 years ago, and as an early teen was writing and submitting short stories and articles to magazines, proudly waving my rejection slips in knowing that I could be just as bad as any other aspiring writer. Wink Editor of my high school newspaper and a journalism major before music swept me off my feet, but it's been so gratifying to return to my literary roots through my CC articles, the website itself, and having the opportunity to write for both Just Jazz Guitar and Jazz Improv for several years now. Pretty much a "full circle" artistic experience.

Like yourself I also possess a classical music background, certainly unusual for a blues-based jazz guitarist, and devoted many years early in my career to that genre in learning and performing over 250 works. Eventually I had no choice but to let most of my repertoire go. Nowadays I only practice a mere 30 minutes per week playing a few faves, mainly to keep my classical chops from disappearing altogether.

Here are a few brief renditions of popular classical guitar standards, two of them just recorded last week:

"Adelita" (Francisco Tarrega)

"El Testament de Amelia" (Catalonian Folk Song)

"Gymnopedie" (Erik Satie)

"Prelude in A Minor" (Ferdinando Carulli)

Hope you enjoy them. While simple, they do showcase my acquired ability in that arena. I plan to dust off some of the longer works by Bach, Villa-Lobos, and many others for future recordings. They're all in longterm memory, so they should come back relatively fast.

Finally, I thought the journalistic exaggeration was highly amusing, but that's happened to me, too. Even though I only attended the San Francisco Conservatory of Music for a brief time in my early twenties, reviewers have automatically assumed and then written that I am some sort of college "professor" with a doctorate in music. It's hilarious to say the least, but then again their assumption is based on what they hear in my playing, which can only be a good thing. Wink

- Mark
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billbluesandjazz



Joined: 29 May 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark - classical guitar sounds so good! I still like Gymnopaedie number 3 on the piano Wink .

Need to dash, have to pick up some last--minute supplies (batteries etc.) so that I can record the whole week of summer school.

All the best.

Bill
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kbgtr001



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: Four On Six: Walking Bass (previews) Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
The past week or two I've been having some fun creating several jazz guitar duo demos using the walking bass editions and a brush kit, showcasing just one of many possible applications. In this spirited (225 bpm) rendition of Gershwin's classic "I Got Rhythm" I used a brief II-V chord-melody rubato intro to set the stage for the head, played in Wes-style octaves over the walking accompaniment. One-chorus solo, head again and out.

Mark,

Thanks for the "I Got Rhythm" track. I'm looking forward to checking out
the FOS 'set.' Also the VGT "Moon River" mini lesson (email 20 May 2009) is quite nice.
It seems your developing a 'combo platter' of lesson material that can be 'mixed and matched'
rather than necessarily following a linear sequence of lessons.

The "I Got Rhythm" octaves head is gorgeous. The texture of the main guitar part in each section
is very different but transitions smoothly with the walking bass weaving through holding the
thread together. I must say though, when I hear this, the 'Flintstones' theme is stuck in
my ear now and creeps through as I'm listening. With the "Bass Talk" track, "there's
enough material and information in these examples to keep most players busy" for a while
(to quote a phrase Wink ).

-Kb
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Four On Six: Walking Bass (previews) Reply with quote

kbgtr001 wrote:
The "I Got Rhythm" octaves head is gorgeous. The texture of the main guitar part in each section is very different but transitions smoothly with the walking bass weaving through holding the thread together. I must say though, when I hear this, the 'Flintstones' theme is stuck in my ear now and creeps through as I'm listening.


Kb,

Thanks for the feedback and glad you enjoyed the track. As you may or may not know, a couple of years ago I recorded a take on Rhythm Changes using the Flintstones theme as the head, also done in Wes-style octaves. Tempo's much quicker, though. To check it out, click here.

I was going to record that head over the walking bass/chords FOS backup, but then it occurred to me that with all the RC heads I've played and taught over the years, I'd never actually recorded the Gershwin head. However, I have played the Flintstones theme in octaves over the second guitar, and it fits like a hand in a glove. My octave w/chord punch spin on Duke's C Jam Blues also lays out beautifully over the walking bass/chord track.

Speaking of Ellington, the FOS series and recent demos, here's my spin on "Take the A Train" that I recorded two weeks ago. I did the head in the upper register and used conventional jazz chords in response. One solo chorus, then head again and out. Btw, these longer, 32-bar progressions are the most challenging when it comes to a well-balanced, harmonically interesting walk. Hope you enjoy it!

- Mark
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kbgtr001



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Four On Six: Walking Bass (previews) Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Thanks for the feedback and glad you enjoyed the track. As you may or may not know, a couple of years ago I recorded a take on Rhythm Changes using the Flintstones theme as the head, also done in Wes-style octaves. Tempo's much quicker, though. To check it out, click here.

Mark,

Interesting contrast in these presentations; tempo, register, energy.
For me, the 'Flinstones' version has more of a 'horn quality' about it,
the 'I Got Rhythm' version has a 'swing vocal personality.'

Obviously, very subjective reading on my part; but that's how I hear it.

-Kb
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