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Suggestion for LBM format
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:38 pm    Post subject: Suggestion for LBM format Reply with quote

I think that a useful hel to MEMORIZE LBM material would
be to actually attempt to transcribe it before reading charts.
But because Mark discusses every track in details during on CD
it gives away all the clues. So perhaps additional track on CD
containing only music would be a good idea.

JT
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trick is to fast forward to the demo, which is usually at the end of the segment. I listen to my LBM lessons using "Transcribe!", and follow this order (approximately):

I mark where the demo is.
I transcribe the demo.
I work from the music for a while.
I listen to the explanation.
Then I memorize.

Hope this helps. I'd be interested in discovering how others approach learning this material.
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lenny, that is a serious approach to the lessons. When I began LBM I did what probably everyone does;put the music on the stand, pick up the guitar and start the tape (yes, cassette's in those days). Over the years my M.O. has changed a little. Now I sit down with the sheet music and try to learn it prior to listening to Mark's CD, paying attention to the expression and timing. Then I listen to see how close I am to the recording. Next I load it into Transcribe and work on being able to play along note for note by the time the next lesson arrives.
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes sense too.

By the way, I did the cassettes too! I bought a decent cassette player in Mark's honor, just to listen to my LBM tapes.
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Student Props Reply with quote

Larry & Len,

Just for the record, I've been teaching full-time and seriously for 38 years, and you guys are among just THREE students who are at the absolute top of my list when it comes to transcribing ability. I only wish that I could get others to "see the light" as you have, because it's one thing to nod your head in agreement, but another thing altogether to step up to the plate and do what's required to reach higher ground.

As far as I'm concerned, your present success is only logical and your future success a foregone conclusion, so keep up the great work! All for now...

- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the kind words, Mark.

I am grateful for all of the encouragement you've given me to transcribe over the years. It is one of the two most meaningful door openers I have had in music. The other is a phrase in "The Advancing Guitarist" that states "you must always take responsibility for your own development." To me, this means, that if you want something, you have to follow the correct path, no matter how difficult.

Transcribing is difficult, but it is the correct path. It was the single hardest thing I've tackled on guitar. The trick is to start slow, do a little each day, and keep a journal to track your progress (because you will get discouraged otherwise). Before you know it, you will see results flow into areas of your playing that you never expected.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: The Key to Success Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Transcribing is difficult, but it is the correct path. It was the single hardest thing I've tackled on guitar. The trick is to start slow, do a little each day, and keep a journal to track your progress (because you will get discouraged otherwise). Before you know it, you will see results flow into areas of your playing that you never expected.


Len,

I hope that many readers follow your advice, especially regarding the "do a little each day" part of the equation. This is something I continually talk about, because when it comes to something challenging, psychologically it's VERY smart to reduce the time factor to, let's say... 10-15 minutes per day (max)

What that allows you to do is: 1) Get started (critically important), 2) Establish a daily routine without feeling overwhelmed, and 3) Maintain lower and realistic expectations due to the minimal time invested.

The beauty of that approach is that before long you'll realize how much you're learning and how quickly your ear is developing. That's when the excitement rises because it dawns on you what you CAN potentially learn in a way that's highly personal and unique for your goals. At that point the "transcribing drug" becomes, well... addicting. Wink

- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Mark. Without your encouragement I never would have thought of transcribing as a useful activity. It's amazing to find out just how many of the great players in jazz history learned other people's solos note for note and what it did for their development. It was intimidating at first, especially since my first attempts were solos by Wes, Chet Baker and Barney Kessel. But with user friendly tools like Transcribe and Sibelius G7 I learned pretty fast.
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Rocknjim



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Transcribing is difficult, but it is the correct path. It was the single hardest thing I've tackled on guitar. The trick is to start slow, do a little each day, and keep a journal to track your progress (because you will get discouraged otherwise). Before you know it, you will see results flow into areas of your playing that you never expected.


Mark, Larry, Lenny
Ok, I know this is going to sound like a "Doh!!" question but I need a little clearer explanation of the term "transcribe". Are you listening to the music and then trying to reproduce the notes, timing, chords, slides, bends, etc without actually looking at the music? If that's the case are you also taking the time to transfer those sounds, chords, etc to the written page? I once read that SRV could not read music at all and only played by ear. He had to have someone sit with him and transcribe his playing to sheet music and tab.

Sometimes it seems that the word "transcribe" has different meanings to different people depending on their ability or, ahhhhh........lack there of. Shocked

I am about 8 lessons into the LBM R&B course and have enjoyed it completely. I really, really like to improvise over backing tracks so the "blues tricks" collections have been a constant source of fun and new ideas. I think I'm also beginning to break out of the minor pentatonic box and just go with the flow a little better. The suggestions of which Jam Track to use the "blues tricks" licks with is a great help also.

I guess my standard way to attack each lesson is to go straight to the demo and then find the Jam Track that goes with it, set the Jam Track up and slow it down, listen to the Jam Track and demo and see how the demo fits with the track and then begin to work through the demo measure by measure. After I get the demo somewhat playable all the way through I'll put the jam track on loop and just play the demo over the top of it until it begins to sound close. When I start to feel comfortable with the concepts, timing, bends, fingerings, etc. then I start to crank the speed up to where it belongs. Seems to work pretty good.

I use the "blues tricks" as little treats while I'm letting the concepts from the main demo sink in. I "rest" for a while, work on the tricks, find tracks I can play them with and then go back to working on the demo. I have managed to keep up with all the lessons so far.

I hope that by the time I finish this R&B series that there is another to continue with. If not I think I'll have to start on the Swing Jazz series or maybe the bass!! I recently got a bass and have been messing with it when I can. Playing bass is just plain fun!!

So, keep up the incredible work Mark. It is really outstanding, well done, well taught, just enough and anybody who has ever suffered through the "usual" guitar teacher approach will find it a huge breath of fresh air.
I wish I had found this years ago. However, years ago I might not have been frustrated enough and "mature" enough to appreciate it like I do now.

Take care.

Jim
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jim,

It's not a "doh" question at all. Here's my definition, but I imagine that others will have their own point of view.

To me, the "trans" (e.g., transform) in "transcribe" is the important syllable. The "scribe" (e.g., write) is optional.

The important part is to listen to something and figure out what is being played. Once you're over that hurdle, you can tackle other great things, such as writing it down (in standard notation, tablature, chord sybols, note names, or anything else that works for you), or playing along with it.

I attempt to do all three activities, because I feel that is the most robust learning experience. However, I don't think it's essential to always write things down (it really depends on whether you want to remember them or not and if you want to improve your reading skills).
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 2:55 am    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Thoughts Reply with quote

Rocknjim wrote:
So, keep up the incredible work Mark. It is really outstanding, well done, well taught, just enough and anybody who has ever suffered through the "usual" guitar teacher approach will find it a huge breath of fresh air.


Jim,

Thanks for the kind words and great to see you over here! I just read Len's post, which was an excellent explanation of a word that infers writing but in reality is more about learning by ear. In the preface of my recent "Seven Steps to Jazz Changes" article published in Jazz Improv, I noted guitar legends such as Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, and George Benson as being players who learned the language by ear, yet couldn't or never chose to write (let alone read) music.

This wasn't to imply that you or others should do likewise, but more to underline the value of the ear and learning the language through imitation, as some of the greatest jazz guitarists have historically proven.

Having said that, I got involved with writing very early in my career. As most know, my father was a horn player and he was writing and arranging as a teenager, so that might have had something to do with my interest in documenting what I was hearing. Well, that and the fact that I have so many non-guitar influences, and if we were to starting citing piano, sax, and trumpet greats, let's face it... most read and write very well compared to guitarists in general.

For the record, I never write anything until I can play it well, which is what I always advise others to do. Len is totally on the money with regards to what writing will do for your reading ability. If you were to write anything even 10-15 minutes a day you'll become a better reader than if you were to spend a couple of hours just reading. Trust me, I know from many years of doing the latter and then seeing my reading skyrocket when I started to write what I was hearing, especially when it comes to a deeper understanding of rhythm and syncopation.

Finally, and perhaps most important to me, consider the fact that out of the numerous artist transcriptions I've notated over the years, about thirty are from George Benson, spanning the years '64 through '79. Out of those great solos I've extracted over 700 blues clichés alone, and have been digesting and teaching them (and their many derivatives) as part of my main vocabulary for decades. Naturally, passing this valuable knowledge down to my guitar students over and over again has only cemented it in my "automatic pilot" and long-term memory. Sometimes I wonder if I'd be half the player, composer, or coach I am today if I hadn't bothered to write it all down, because who could possibly remember all of that information? Wink

- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim, one other thing. I find the most part of writing to be writing down the rhythm. The best way to learn this is to start with easy rhythms. Surprisingly, fast jazz has easier rhythms than ballads or slow blues. Writing down the notes is a lesser skill builder.
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Rocknjim



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylenny wrote:
Hi Jim,

To me, the "trans" (e.g., transform) in "transcribe" is the important syllable. The "scribe" (e.g., write) is optional. The important part is to listen to something and figure out what is being played. Once you're over that hurdle, you can tackle other great things, such as writing it down (in standard notation, tablature, chord sybols, note names, or anything else that works for you), or playing along with it.


Thanks Lenny. I feel a little better now and I'm happy to admit that by your definition, which jives with mine, I do transcribe. I'm always hearing a lick or chord change/progression or rhythm that I think sounds cool or interesting and trying to “transplay” it myself. It also seems that in the middle of the transplay activity, some of my attempts at finding the exact notes of the original piece become my own version/interpretation of the original which is also a good thing. I also have a tendency to sing the phrase as I go which really helps.
Not sure what kind of music you listen to but Johnny A. has a blues instrumental out right now called “Oh Yeah”. I have been trying to transplay that one in my “spare” time. It’s got a really cool feel/groove to it and some great riffs and licks.
Maybe as time goes along I can move from the transplay to the transcribe level. I can see how that would really push your playing abilities.
Also, I absolutely agree with your comment further in the thread. If you can hear the rhythm and maybe even identify what it is (slow blues, bebop, jazzy, bossa nova, etc) and get the feel for how the rhythm colors the tune, you’ve taken a huge step in transplaying the piece.
Take care and thanks for your excellent comments.

Jim
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim,

"Transplay" is an awesome word! I really like that one.
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Rocknjim



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Transcribing Thoughts Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Thanks for the kind words and great to see you over here! I just read Len's post, which was an excellent explanation of a word that infers writing but in reality is more about learning by ear. In the preface of my recent "Seven Steps to Jazz Changes" article published in Jazz Improv, I noted guitar legends such as Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, and George Benson as being players who learned the language by ear, yet couldn't or never chose to write (let alone read) music.


(I can't seem to get the quotes to work right so if this looks funny it's operator error!! Mine....! Confused )

I was just answering Lenny and your comments and his really help to put this in perspective. I truly appreciate the ideas and thoughts.
However, my brain working like it does, I wondered about a possible addition to your LBM lessons. It's something that could be done for any of your series and seems like it should be pretty simple. Maybe you could include a phrase (4 bars, 8 bars, someting short), complicated or simple, with no tab at all, just music. You could play the full phrase a couple times with rythm. This could be a "transcribe" exercise that you provide the answer to in the next LBM. It could also be a "first lesson of the month" addition where you provide a transcribe phrase along with the answer to the previous first of the month phrase. You could make it an optional, extra credit for those of us who might want to and others could do it or not as they wished. The cool thing is that whether a person choose to do it or not, it would be there in the lesson, making them feel guilty if they didn't. Like my mom used to do when I didn't practice!! Very Happy

Thanks again for all you do Mark. It is truly outstanding.

Take care.

Jim
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