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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: CHOPS Reply with quote

For me this was an eternal quest spanning over three decades. It dovetails with my quest for tone. This is a long post, but it was a long quest.

When I got back into playing five or six years ago, thanks to the internet I heard all kinds of chop monster players, guys like Conti and Bruno. I suddenly felt very inadequate. When the tempo got much above 230 my technique broke down as far as being able to play decent lines. I had to resort to cheap licks and tricks. And so the quest began.

I determined that the problem was in my right hand, and the coordination between the right and left hand. So, I went on a quest for the best right hand technique by studying the players that could blow at any tempo.

I started with Robert Conti’s method. A paper thin pick, generating motion with a pencil type movement. It didn't work for me. Next I went with a super thick pick and rotation movement from the elbow, like Bruno or Al DeMiola. It didn't work. Then I heard the gypsy guys like Rosenberg and Bereli. Off I went with wrist picking. Then I saw an article by Tuck about Benson picking. So,,,I tried that.

The great news was, after three years I could play at 230BPM five different ways. This is what I think: It's not the pick, it's not pivot point, it's not linear or three finger left hand, it is what works for you, just like golf stroke or pool cue stroke. Martino, Benson, Birili, Oberg, Bruno, Conti, Benson, all have something in common. The can play at any tempo with clean and meaningful lines. What they don't have in common is the same picking or left hand technique.

Two years ago I achieved my goal. I spent countless hours talking with Mark on this very subject. I decided that ripping high speed playing wasn't necessary or within my grasp. My all time favorite guitar player is Wes. Not for his speed but for his playing. It seems when I gave up the quest I opened myself up to being able to play fast. I quit the drills, the endless picking evaluations and the constant metronome measuring. Next thing I knew I was able to play very fast, at tempos I couldn't achieve before.

I am not sure how or when it happened. I started playing with a sax player that has tremendous technique. We would be bouncing along playing a song like Just Friends at a nice temp of 150 or 160 and he would tear into the solo and double time it!! Then after this ripping solo full of bebop lines and great harmonic ideas he would point to me for my solo. I am thinking what the hell, I don't want to follow that, this sucks!! Then I would try to compete and double time a little myself. Little by little, it started to happen. I didn't worry about how I picked, fingered or anything, I just went for it in the heat of battle. And it happened, somehow. These days I am pretty comfortable at almost any tempo.

Now I am back where I started. I have the chops, but it doesn’t matter. I want the lines, note choices and harmonic content that will set my playing apart. Speed for speeds sake is pretty worthless. One other note; the horn players and keyboard players I play with never talk about speed and they all have formidable chops. It must be disease of the guitar.
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: CHOPS Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:

Now I am back where I started. I have the chops, but it doesn’t matter. I want the lines, note choices and harmonic content that will set my playing apart. Speed for speeds sake is pretty worthless. One other note; the horn players and keyboard players I play with never talk about speed and they all have formidable chops. It must be disease of the guitar.


Awesome post Dave! I'm so with you! I spent so many hour developing the right hand and the ability to pick clean 32nds at 120, and I could do it.

I only use JD Jazz III picks and prefer to use only a flat surface guitar or at least to have a flat surface so I can do my whittling the way I want.

But then came the grim reality, even though I can keep up and flail with the best of them, the music that was coming out was lacking. I've always tried to be melodic, but so heavily limited myself in color.

So the journey of learning the jazz language began....and what a journey! Wink
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: CHOPS Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
One other note; the horn players and keyboard players I play with never talk about speed and they all have formidable chops. It must be disease of the guitar.


Could it be because many guitar player that end up playing jazz
do not take formal instrument lessons at the young age ?
Unlike piano or horn players.

Well - it may sound a bit like harmless voodoo but one thing that
helped me a little with my left-right SYNCHRONIZATION problem
was to visualize connection between my fretting and piucking hand.
Connection that is not going the long way - wrist-elbow-spine-brain
etc to the other hand but which is right in front of me - connection
thru the vibrating segment of string between my left and right hand
and the tactile info - feeling how picking is being sensed by fretting hand.

It wont solve the problem of CHOPS or playing in some monster tempos
but it may help a little with getting your hands in sync.

JT
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Mark
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: CHOPS Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
Two years ago I achieved my goal. I spent countless hours talking with Mark on this very subject. I decided that ripping high speed playing wasn't necessary or within my grasp. My all time favorite guitar player is Wes. Not for his speed but for his playing. It seems when I gave up the quest I opened myself up to being able to play fast. I quit the drills, the endless picking evaluations and the constant metronome measuring. Next thing I knew I was able to play very fast, at tempos I couldn't achieve before.


Dave,

Bravo! I totally agree with Mr. Gorecki regarding your post and yes, we really have gone around the block on this subject, haven't we? Very Happy

With that in mind, what I'll share will be more for the sake of other readers, since it will just reiterate our past conversations. But hey... repetition isn't such a bad thing, like a classic Wes lick that listeners never get tired of hearing, right?

I could've mentioned any number of players in that statement, but I chose Wes for a reason. One is that he's been such a heavy influence on you, me, and many others. But the second reason is that as the accepted "Father of Bebop Jazz Guitar," he was the epitome of playing less notes yet saying so much more in achieving powerful dynamics in a solo.

What continues to fascinate me is the fact that most players recognize what he brought to the table in his "call & response" style involving octaves and chords, yet the majority seem to ignore what he taught us in their ongoing quest for speed above substance. For me, 99% of the time when I hear a player and think chops first, inevitably I lose interest VERY fast and rarely will listen again.

Unfortunately, what typically goes along with the guitar "speed trap" is a lack of phrasing or pausing to take a breath like a horn player. Result? No communication because the listener doesn't have time to interact and digest what was said. Sadly, some guitar speed merchants do have something to say, but when the message is buried in an avalanche of notes, it's lost and therefore the mission is a failure.

Another point relative to the guitar and Wes in the jazz genre is the simple fact that our instrument inherently doesn't have a BIG sound when it comes to single-line playing. For instance, when Brian Best (Dave's saxophonist) hits a high F in Bb and sustains it? Regardless of how rich your guitar tone happens to be, NO WAY that you're going to replicate the power unless you get creative ala Wes (and his disciples) with the use of double-stops, octaves, chords, and repetitions.

Finally, your quest for having something strong to say? Well, you're preaching to the choir, because my ultimate goal as an improviser and composer is to play with a lot of emotion and make sure that EVERY single note means something, no matter how fast or slow I play it. If not, the hippest note you can play is a rest. Hmm... now where have I heard that before? Laughing

- Mark
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Hall is a great example here. In interviews, he often mentions that he never developed speed. But he's sure influenced a lot of folks.

Another thing I've noticed -- kind of relates to Mark's post about the guitar having a thin tone, above -- is that it's easier to play slow solos with a little overdrive. I guess it makes up for the guitar's thin tone. It doesn't work in all styles, but it sure can make a blues solo sing.

My biggest concern is not speed (not that I'm super fast or anything -- speed is a relative concept), it's playing something meaningful at tempo, which I have trouble doing if the tempo is fast. If you take a swing blues (or rhythm changes) and crank the tempo up beyond where I'm comfortable, it's hard to think or trust your ear at speed. The tendency is to go for the "muscle memory licks," where your ear, brain and fingers get a divorce. I guess that's where model solos come in handy.
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My biggest concern is not speed (not that I'm super fast or anything -- speed is a relative concept), it's playing something meaningful at tempo, which I have trouble doing if the tempo is fast.


This was what drove me in my quest to have the chops to play any idea that came up at any tempo. Having to avoid songs or tempos because I couldn't cut it really bugged me. I don't want to have to put my guitar down if the band wants to do Oleo at 260+ and I don't want to sound like crap trying to keep up if I couldn't cut it. Even on medium tempos songs I had things I wanted to play (double time) and I couldn't execute them.

Meaningful is the key, I agree. I have transcribed some Tal Farlow and Charlie Parker lines that were played at rediculous tempos. They were very meaningful.

I think some of it is personal taste also. If your ears can't keep up with the notes, it is all a blur and won't be very gratifying for the listener. Of course a lot of jazz isn't played for the listener. I think a great blend of chops vs content is Oscar. It can be done.

My goal is to be meaningful at any tempo. I hear so much flash and so little content in a lot of todays players that I want to avoid that trap.

Dave
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, you hit the nail on the head when you talk about Charlie Parker and Oscar Peterson. It's amazing when you slow down some solos and figure them out. The harmonic content is still there. That's where the rubber hits the road.

I also agree that not having the speed limits the repetoire you can play, which is the problem I'm having. I've been trying to fix this by turning up the speed a little each day, but I find that I get stuck at certain speeds, unless I play memorized solos.
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HJ



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:24 am    Post subject: Chops, part 1 Reply with quote

Hello everyone,
I've been checking out the postings over here about picking, chops, and speed. Very interesting things everyone has to say. I hope that I can add some things that maybe haven't been addressed. To Dave, who has really worked hard on getting his picking together: content is the most serious thing to consider when comparing all these players with each other. I think that if we transcribe and compare the harmonic content of other jazz guitarists with that of Benson or Wes, you'll find the latter two so harmonically advanced, they're in a league of their own. These two guys don't play scales, they play harmonically advanced ideas. The fact the George Benson can execute these rich harmonic ideas at the speed in which he does is amazing in itself to listen to.

Being one of the four guys that George has personally taught his picking technique to, I'm here to tell you that he can do things with the pick that others cannot. First of all, he articulates certain notes in his phrases just the way the Oscar does and Bird did regardless of the tempo. Second, GB's picking is not the way that Tuck's diatribes has stated. How are you going teach everyone else how to do something that you were never taught to do? I can find no logic in this.

Now here's where everybody is missing the boat: when it comes to being able to execute and articulate fast, harmonically complex ideas, GB's template is non other than Charlie Parker. I have personally hung out with him for hours at his home, and witnessed him scatting 22 Charlie Parker solos note-for-note. Then he went from there to scatting solos from Dizzy, Grant Green, Wes, Kenny Burrell, Johnny Smith, and Hank Garland. To be honest with you guys, I don't know how many solos GB may remember because he started transcribing when he only 17 years old.

GB's picking technique is kind of "open ended" for lack of a better term. Meaning that it doesn't lock him into things he's worked out on the guitar, it allows him to start and stop anywhere, and to play what ever he thinks of on the spot going in any direction. Here's the other thing that he drummed into my head: in order to play fast, you have to hear fast. You learn to hear fast by listening to players like Bird and Oscar. After you've done this for a while, things that seemed fast are now quite slow in your new found perception of time. That is the way that these masters hear the time.

One more thing before I retire from this "Part 1", Dave, you also said that scatting hasn't been that useful to you because you just scat what already know. I suggest trying what GB told me to do; listen to and learn to scat other solos and musical ideas that you don't know because you need to listen to and transcribe new material constantly. If you stop, your ears will not continue to grow and advance your harmonic concepts. I learn new songs the same way. If you can't scat or sing it, you can't hear it, and if you can't hear it fast and accurate, you can't play it. Thanks for letting me share with you, guys. I'll log back in at a later time for Part 2. Take care.

Henry Johnson
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Mark
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Chops, part 1 Reply with quote

HJ wrote:
I've been checking out the postings over here about picking, chops, and speed. Very interesting things everyone has to say. I hope that I can add some things that maybe haven't been addressed.


Henry,

Well, I have to be the first to reply, if for no other reason than to say that I am simply honored to have you here in our new forum! You have been a complete inspiration to me with all that you've shared during our numerous conversations over the years, and I attribute a great deal of my continuing artistic evolution to your encouragement.

One of the many reasons that I approached Ed Benson (Publisher of Just Jazz Guitar Magazine) to do our current cover story interview is that your credibility as a jazz guitarist who truly understands the path and the core language, based on decades of transcribing and playing with so many legends of the genre, is just off the map.

More than anyone here I know that you are very busy, so a BIG thanks for finding the time to share your thoughts with us!

- Mark
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bigdaddydannyq



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guitarist qwest for speed!!!! This isn't the high speed internet were talking about its music. How can I get from point A to point B and make it mean something using seven or twelve notes? Well the task isn't an easy answer. And just like everything else I've read over forty some odd years, its all different. So here's my attempt at the subject.
Speed is simple. If you can play fast and make it count do it, if you can't don't. There are exercises that have been taught on the subject by many, many guitar players. Some work and most don't. The problem I find with most of my students is tempo. In general guitarist have none. I call it the lazy man in the ship syndrom. I'll have a student sit and I ask him or her to play me a tune. And as we all know they will always pull out the hardest fastest thing they've learned. But in all the flash there's no foot. It's like if there isn't a drummer or a bass player to keep the tempo then the tune doesn't need any. We all know that this isn't true.(Another reason a serious guitar player should learn to play the bass.) Watch any of the great's, Wes, Joe Oscar, Bird or Trane but don't watch there hands watch there feet. There always on the quarter note always!!
As with anything speed comes from within. If you hear a fast line in your musical ear then work on it until you can play it. But remember (SLOW IS FAST!!!) I was taught this by an old bluesplayer named TJ Mushmouth Lemon Pitts Wheeler. He hung around the state capitol in Denver many ,many, many years ago when I was a young lad that carried my sears and robuck stella guitar around absorbing everything I could from anyone I could ,like sponge. I was fast at a young age but he straightend me out in no time. I guess the ruler behind the ear worked when my foot got lazy.
So if I want to play a fast phrase and it doesn't come out natuarally then I learn it slow. The speed will come depending on the tempo. Tempo is everything, because if your audiance isn't tapping there feet to your music whether slow or fast then you need to ask your self. What am I doing up on this stage? We need to be brutaly honest with oueselves on this matter. When a guitarist works on tempo to the point that everything he hears and plays in on the quarter note, then a guitar player can slow a phrase down or speed it up at his or her own will. Its music man. There are times to get off or play with the tempo but thats for another forum. In short were entertainers.Tempo ,Tempo ,Tempo .Its the key to everything we strive for. Keep your audience moving and good things will happen no matter what the speed .Move the foot man !!!
Bigdaddy
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I believe BigDaddy intended his post, I agree. Speed is not important per se. I'm constantly walking into music stores, hearing a beginner playing sloppy, fast, non-rhythmic, unmisical lines (usually with a lot of distortion) and thinking, "why don't you learn to play some music?"

But there is a deeper analysis that deals with speed and musicality. I recommend that you read Mark's excellent article on the subject entitled, "Acquiring Speed." Here's the hyperlink:

http://visionmusic.com/members/articles/acquiringspeed.html

Mark makes the point that there is a basic "density" in any style of music. For example, in bebop, it's the eighth note. Since bebop is played at speeds up to 250 bpm, to adequately play Bebop (especially if you aren't the one solely dictating tempos to the band), you have to be able to play, HEAR, FEEL, and THINK at that speed.

Most intermediate players can play meaningless, yet cleanly executed, notes at that speed. It's difficult, however, to do that and sound musical.

Of course, you can play quarter notes and half notes. Mark gives the great example of Miles' amazing solo on Freddie Freeloader from Kind of Blue. But at some point, to play certain songs, you need to be able to keep density at tempo (especially if you want to make your solo relate to those played by other musicians -- i.e., quoting their harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic ideas).

So, as a surface argument, I agree. Speed for speed's sake is ridiculous. However, there is a deeper analysis.

As a preliminary argument, try playing through Giant Steps. Many of us can do it at very slow tempos. Now try playing it at a musical tempo, when keys and harmonies are changing every few seconds. Kind of tough, eh?

A short cut to this is memorizing a lot of licks (or model solos). You can plug and play them over changes with some degree of muscle memory, while still anticipating how your solo will sound and remaining musical.

If you don't acquire EAR, MIND, and MUSICAL (not physical) speed at some point (and I'm not saying that I'm there yet), you have limited yourself to a subset of the repetoire.

Classical players have great attitudes about speed. They care about speed because it gives them the ability to play specific repetoire at musical tempi. Check out Segovia. He didn't pick his repetoire by how difficult it was. (He recorded a lot of easy repetoire.) Instead, he cared about sound. And to get that sound, sometimes he played fast. Imagine how bad it would have sounded if he played Asturias or Bach's Chaconne at slow tempos. Listen to the recordings; you'll get the idea. His tempo is perfect; not too fast, not too slow. Change the tempo at all and it doesn't sound as good (try it with Transcribe! software -- it will blow your mind).

I have transcribed fast jazz solos. To my amazement, I've found that some well-known players don't follow the changes at fast tempos.

One of Mark's articles quotes his late father, who said, "You guitarists are so consumed with how fast you can play. Remember, speed often hides a multitude of sin!" (See hyperlink below.)

http://visionmusic.com/articles/quest.html

Charlie Parker, George Benson, Wes, and others can do it all in any musical context. If you slow down their solos over fast changes, they're still amazing!
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HJ



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys,
I'd like to chime in here if I may, I'm also in agreement with BigDaddy, speed for the sake of speed is not the goal. Having said that, in just my own experiences, I would say that this issue is not about being a guitarist, it's about being a proficient musician who is capable of handling any musical situation that may come your way. When a arranger writes a part for you to play, he expects you to be able to play it just like any of the other musicians there. What are you going to say, "I'm sorry but I don't have the technical facility to play this part"? Their response will be, "Oh really? Don't worry about it, we'll call someone else who can play it. Thanks for your time, and don't call us, we'll call you."

I played with Sonny Stitt, a saxophonist from the bebop era and I have to tell you, if you've ever heard any of his recordings, you know immediately that he is a master. That experience was eye-opening for me because he could play musically at any tempo and at the time, I could not. I had not met George Benson yet, so I still had all the speed problems he later helped me to rid myself of. I was getting my butt kicked playing songs that I had known for years. So for me, that's what mastery is all about; being able play musical at any tempo and in any situation. It is not ok to allow yourself to look bad in a situation and not benefit from it's lesson. You need to be technically proficient to express yourself at a high musical level. The more complex the music, the more technique you'll need.

I also agree with what BigDaddy said about practicing slow. To acquire a flawless technique, this is a must. If you can't play it perfect slow, there's no way you'll be able to play it perfect fast. You have to pay special attention to all the little details that you can't see when playing fast. My own saying is, "Practice Makes Permanent". Which boils down to, if you practice it wrong, it's burned into your muscle memory permanently. The only way to remove the mistakes is to go back and reprogram the whole thing again. And BigDaddy, don't be so hard on the guitarists about time, dude! Smile Guitarist do not have the market cornered when it comes to having bad time as I see this happening with students of all instruments.

Another important point made by Nylenny was about how fast you can hear the music coming through you. Your brain is your most important musical tool that you have. It processes musical information to the rest of your body and enables you to physically execute it. I see a lot of conversions about playing what you hear, but nothing about the content of what you hear. You have to train your ears to recognize what they're hearing and exactly what it is. The only way I know to accomplish this is to listen and transcribe a LOT. This is serious work, but worth every minute used on it.

It still amazes me how our minds can suspend and stretch our perception of time. Here is an inner look of what's going on in my musical ears while I am playing. To the listener, I am playing this musical phrase really fast, maybe as 16th notes, but what I hear in my head is slowed down to the point of being like quarter notes to me. It's really a strange feeling the first time you experience it, but you get hooked on it very quickly. This is how it's possible for you to hear many bars ahead in the music you're playing.

To check out this concept for yourself, put on a recording of someone like Oscar Peterson, Bird, Trane, Art Tatum, Benson, or Freddie Hubbard playing at some of their fastest tempos and listen to that for just an hour. Pick up your guitar and play a song you know faster than you normally do and watch what happens to the way you hear and play. You wont believe how much easier it feels to play faster. This is what it's like to hear and play fast. It's a euphoric kind of feeling that only last a couple of hours.

I've been doing this now for over 25 years so I hear this way all the time. Which ever one of you guys try this, would you share your experience with the rest of us on the forum? I'm sure it will of great benefit for all of you to compare your results with each other, including me. I think what you'll find in the end is that time is an illusion that we can manipulate for ourselves. Hey Nylenny, can you tell who these well known players are that didn't follow the changes at uptempo speeds? I'd like to hear what they sound like doing this. Ok folks, this has gone way longer than I had planned. It's just that I am enjoying reading about what you all have say.

Until the next post,
Henry
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Mark
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HJ wrote:
Ok folks, this has gone way longer than I had planned. It's just that I am enjoying reading about what you all have say.


Henry,

"Way longer?" Not in a million years! As a matter of fact, I have an original song entitled "Too Much Is Never Enough," which sums up my opinion on anything you have to say. Wink

Okay, there are a couple of things you've shared with me pertinent to the chops issue, and they tie directly into your post. One is that when there's a challenge in front of you, it's not good enough to just "do your best." You simply have to do what is required to get the job done. That was obviously what you were facing when your chops weren't up to the task years ago, because doing your best wasn't good enough. You had to find a way to do what was required, and you did.

Like many players, I've often beaten myself up over things I mentally "thought" I should be able to do, until it finally dawned on me that true technical mastery isn't about how fast you can play or how strong you are. It's really all about achieving a balance between hearing something significant to say and being able to execute it. For a blues master like B.B. King, it could be what is perceived as the simplest little cliché. For a Sonny Stitt or Oscar Peterson it could be a flurry of double-timed 16th notes in a jazz solo. To me, there's no difference in the technical balance required to get the point across.

As jazz guitarists go, players like Wes, Kenny, and Grant are three of my all-time favorite artists. They're generally not considered speed merchants, yet are master technicians who could phrase brilliantly with no issues at any tempo.

With that in mind, I always tell my students that you only have a technical problem if you can't execute what you're hearing. In that case, you have to find a way to do what is required. If the balance is there and you can execute what you hear, you have no problem.

The other point I wanted to bring up (that you may wish to comment on now or down the road) is the myth regarding the importance of beats 2 & 4, with many even suggesting to practice with a metronome using those beats. That never felt right to me, because I always worked off 1 & 3, and when the tempo really gets up there, off 1 alone. It was great hearing that you and your mentors came to the same conclusion, which leads to more dialogue in a solo because of the way that you react to the accompaniment. Thanks for sharing...

- Mark
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BarbNY



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
The other point I wanted to bring up (that you may wish to comment on now or down the road) is the myth regarding the importance of beats 2 & 4, with many even suggesting to practice with a metronome using those beats. That never felt right to me, because I always worked off 1 & 3, and when the tempo really gets up there, off 1 alone. It was great hearing that you and your mentors came to the same conclusion, which leads to more dialogue in a solo because of the way that you react to the accompaniment. Thanks for sharing...


Thanks Mark & Henry for reaffirming my experience regarding the importance of beats 2 and 4. Years ago I bought an Emily Remler video, "Swing & Bebop Guitar," and she emphasized the importance of 2 and 4 from the start; suggesting that students not go any further until they could play a Bb scale cleanly, tapping their feet on 2 and 4. I'm sure there are many players out there who were strongly influenced by her words, but it never worked for me, and I figured I was just not getting it. Your explanation is something that all players should read before they go down this road.
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nylenny



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
HJ wrote: Hey Nylenny, can you tell who these well known players are that didn't follow the changes at uptempo speeds? I'd like to hear what they sound like doing this.



Henry,

Thank you so much for responding to my post. I have several of your CD's, and I really enjoy and admire your playing.

While it is uncomfortable for me to name names in a public forum -- as these are still players that deserve respect and most likely have made huge life sacrifices to get where they are musically, but there are a host of "speed merchant" guitar players in all genres. I've noticed that I get bored listening to them after a few times. There are other players that play very fast at times, but phrase great and are always musical. I can listen to these guys over and over and never get bored -- like George Benson, Charlie Parker, Grant Green, Jim Hall, Dexter Gordon, Oscar Peterson, Jimmy Bruno, Joe Pass, Wes, Mark and yourself. I also have favorites in most other styles too - blues, rock, classical - for the same reasons.

I've slowed the music down when transcribing some of these "speed merchants." I noticed that the harmonic substance is not as deep. Sometimes, they use just scalar or pentatonic runs. Of course, they're in the right key. But the notes aren't saying as much to me as Wes' do. And sometimes the rhythm is a little off, or the phrasing isn't pleasing to my ears. (Sometimes I need some "air" to digest what I just heard.) I'm no expert, but it does sometimes seem like fluff disguised by speed.

This is not to say that I don't respect these players. As an aspiring guitarist, I'm trying to learn from everyone. And they are certainly above my level. But I can tell you that if I go to the CD store with $20 to spend, it will be for the guys that have superb harmonic substance, phrasing and speak to me emotionally-- regardless of how fast they play -- like the players I listed above (and, as you know, all of them can play really fast). But that is not what's attracting me to their music.

Thanks again for participating in this forum. It's a great opportunity to communicate with players on your level.
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