Vision Music

[nylenny]

I recently came up with an interesting study "game" to integrate the licks I was learning into my playing.


I developed this idea when I was playing with some buddies (and I also borrowed HEAVILY from ideas Mark has given me over the years). We were trading "fours" over the changes to Pent-Up House, which is just a series of long two-fives:

GMaj: ii V I I ii V I I
C Maj: ii V
Bb Maj: ii V
G Maj: ii V I I

(1 measure each chord)

After a few minutes of this, I started to run out of good material (licks I had stolen from from recordings of great players, that is) and revert to the "safety net" of scales, arpeggios, target tones, etc., rather than great language learned from transcription. Needless to say, my playing went downhill.

I have known for a while that a fundamental weakness in my playing is that, although I'm decent at transcribing and do it every day, I forget the licks quickly (like 30 seconds after I write them down ). And the licks don't show up in my playing. In other words, I've been figuring out great language from folks like Grant Green, but I don't sound anything like Grant Green (for many reasons, but let's ignore most of them for now )

Obviously, I needed to get more of my transcribing into my playing. So I came up with a game:

1. Transcribe a great solo that has a lot of short and long two-fives

2. Memorize all of the ii-V's (simply memorize part of the solo, maybe 8
or 16 bars)

3. Play through a swing blues along with a rhythm section backing (like Band in a Box), but do the following (you might want to do this without backing first -- what Mark refers to as "dry improv"):

a: in measure eight, put in a different short ii-V each chorus recently
learned from transcribing

b: in measures nine and ten, put in a different long ii-V each chorus
recently learned from transcribing

c: in the turnaround (measures eleven and twelve), put in two short
two fives (it can be the same two five transposed down a major
second) each chorus

4. Increase the tempo a little each day (and try different keys) until you can actually use the transcribed two-fives in real life! Make sure you use all of the ii-V's from the transcribed solo (hint, figure out which ones you're avoiding, and then stress those the following day). It's not as hard as it sounds. For example, if you transcribe a chorus of Pent-Up House, it's only five two-fives.

5. After a few days of doing this, you will find that you are actually using the language that you transcribed

6. You can insert material from standard "heads" like Opus de Funk or Jumping with Symphony Sid in measures one through seven, varying them from time to time. It's a lot of fun to quote Horace Silver or George Shearing in a solo. (The old bebop players used to insert a lot of quotes -- like "Pop Goes the Weasel" or "Donna Lee" into their playing, and it sounds great, because all of a sudden, the audience hears something familiar.) Quotes don't have to be exact to sound good, and it's a good way to review repetoire (especially riff based stuff like Symphony Sid).

Let me know what you think. I'm always looking for new ways to practice. And I've found that mixing it up from time to time by inventing "games" like the one above are a good way to do so.

[Gorecki]

That's a great idea for helping long term memory retension!

These days it doesn't seem like I remember much compared to earlier life.

Here's an idea a friend told me not really being a study game, but a gigging game, when players have played the same ole standards forever and ever.

Without knowing each other's answer first:
One player pick's the tune.
One player pick's the key signature.
One player pick's the tempo.

Then they all announce it together, allowing the decision for a redo because sometimes the result is not practical. But sometimes it breathes new life into an old over played tune.
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[Dave Illig]

I may get blasted with this, but here it goes anyway. In addition to the language of jazz I am also learning Spanish. The parallels are amazing. The tremendous amount of posts so far on transcribing leads me to believe that a lot of players think it is the end all answer. It is just another tool, I think Mark would agree with that. It sounds like some of the players are spending and inordinate amount of time transcribing when they should be playing which might explain why what they transcribe isn't getting into their playing.

As an example in Spanish, I can copy words all day, but if I don’t use them it won’t work. I don’t mean plug and play either. For instance, every time I go to a Mexican restaurant I don’t want to ask for something the same way. That is like plugging in a line on a two five the same way each time. I want my own voice and lines. So, with Spanish, I learn the words and phrases and use them to say what I want to say, not just spitting out the phrase of the day.

If I learn a new word or verb, I start using it in my conversations. Other wise I dump it. I think it is the same in music. When I learn a line or a phrase I like, I play the crap out of it. I spend ten minutes transcribing it and 10 hours playing it. I am not kidding; I incessantly play new material in every setting I can think of.

Say I like a lick Charlie Parker did on Ornithology. I steal it and then put into a context that I can readily assimilate. Say it was a Gmaj7 lick. I have about a 100 songs that I jam over regularly. I start using that lick on every song. I use it over Em, Gmaj7, A7, Bm or anywhere else I think it might fit. When I am done, I own that lick and I know where and when I like to use it.

The next step is to integrate it with other things I do. Pretty soon, it takes on a new life with my phrasing and usage. I am now beginning to make a conversation with it. I also try to understand where the idea came from so I can use the concept with other things I do. For instance, maybe the Maj7th lick is actually a Minor 7th arpeggio built on the sixth. Well, off I go playing Em ideas over G etc.

I may be wrong, but judging by the posts, it appears some players are spending hours and hours slaving over the transcribing of a long solo, most of which they may not want to use. I play with a sax player that is very good. He plays constantly, non stop!! He reads like a mother and can transcribe on the fly as he has perfect pitch. Yet, he spends most of his time with the horn in his mouth. I have heard George Benson is the same way, he can’t put the ax down.

I think, scales, chords, transcribing, listening, jamming, learning heads, reading, licks etc etc are all just part of the total package necessary to learn how to play. An inordinate amount of time on any once facet can’t be good, in my opinion. Transcribing is probably the most important as it gives you the vocabulary, but for me it is like learning new words in spanish. If I don't start using them I forget them.

Ok, lay it on me, I have thick skin, am open to new ideas and just want to become a better player.

Dave
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The hippest note you can play is a rest.

[nylenny]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the post. I've heard parts of your CD from your website, and you certainly can play, so we all should take your comments seriously. Also, you are addressing an issue that I have struggled with for a long, long time, so I'm glad you brought it up.

With that said, I have a few comments:

I've had to spend an inordinate amount of time just to get to the point where I can transcribe with some proficiency. At Mark's suggestion, I began to transcribe like a maniac (and still do every day).

I admit that I didn't learn as much language from those efforts as I would have liked -- I'm not fluent in the language. And I often think my mind is a total sieve -- I forget my transcriptions almost immediately (could just be the beer and age ). But my ear is decent (and it was once wasn't).

I can sometimes pick things up "on the fly" (like responding to a soloist). My rhythmic reading is decent (I could always get the notes; my main focus is classical guitar); my "actual" improvising, more fluent. And those things are worth the price of admission alone. True, I can't "just speak the language" and my solos are not yet fluent or up to the speed I would like, but I hope that comes with time.

From transcribing, I've also had to figure out what others are doing, which is like taking many theory classes. But with one exception: it's applied theory that has a sound associated with it. For example, you can talk all day about flat ninth resolutions (over dominant to tonic chords), but if you can't "hear" it, the knowledge isn't worth squat.

Your VERY VALID criticism is exactly why I invented the game that I posted. Now that I have some transcribing proficiency, I've decided that I have to PROACTIVELY put the language to work. Transcribing was just the tool that has taken me to the point where I can begin to LEARN (i.e., not APPLY) language. But it's my responsibility to apply the language; the skill doesn't fall like manna from heaven merely from transcribing (unfortunately).

I tried to write model solos, but I quickly forgot those too . (But as an aside, they taught me a lot about composition.)

So I decided that I had to make a concerted effort to learn lines I really like, and be able to integrate them. Both of these points are important. If you don't like the lines, why in the world would you ever play them for anyone? And why would you want to remember them? And if you don't work really hard, the lines will never integrate.

If you play my "game", you first have to transcribe lines, and then use the language in different situations until your fingers fall off. Please look at the original post again (under "Practice Games"). I think you'll find that the game is like putting your favorite licks on flash cards and then having to play them -- over and over and in different contexts.

Maybe our philosophies aren't really that different after all.

In the iteration of the "game" I gave, I play five two-fives from a Pent-Up House solo (right now, I'm working with Mark's excellent solo from Good Vibes -- the series is amazing if you haven't checked it out yet, BTW). I plug the licks into a blues. I'm also working on some Grant Green short two-fives. I play 40 or 50 choruses, and by that time, I remember the lines.

I also apply the game to other tunes -- specifically the bridge to Rhythm Changes. Sometimes, I'll take four or five long two-fives and play them around the circle of fourths. I'll play them in keys that descend in major seconds, etc. I've found BIAB is a great tool for this, because it never gets bored of my playing, and I don't feel like a hog for always taking solos!

I was very flattered, and I took it as a sign that my "game" works from a recent experience. After playing along with BIAB for awhile, I transcribed one of my choruses. I sent it to Mark, who mistakenly thought it was a model solo (mind you, I didn't say a great model solo, but a model solo nonetheless).

So transcribing is just a skill that allows you to do other things. It's only an end-game to becoming a great transcriber. But I don't think Mark or any other great musician has ever advocated transcribing as an exclusive practice method. You have to use it with dry improv, model solos (if that works for you), playing with others, playing with BIAB (my favorite), etc.

I will tell you as an aside that I play with a horn player that has an absolutely amazing ear. He often plays along with recordings and can sometimes get the solos almost note for note right after they are played (and he does not slow them down; he just hits pause). He doesn't know a stitch of theory, doesn't practice scales, usually doesn't know what key we're in, can't write out what he composes, and doesn't read that well (gee, I hope he's not reading this post). But he always sounds great and his pitch and tone is wonderful. So I guess it is possible to do nothing but play by ear without structured practice and accomplish a lot (just not for us mere mortals). I have heard that Wes was the same way. I initially tried to copy my friend's methods, but found that they didn't work for me (although my ear did get better).

I'm curious what your thoughts are to some other issues:

1) How much language do you really need? Does it make sense to transcribe, for example, a Charlie Parker solo, and then not transcribe anything else until you can use every single lick in that solo in a variety of contexts?

2) Do you practice "tweaking" and changing the licks you already know?

3) Do you think it makes more sense to learn the language from transcriptions written by others?

4) How much do you practice scales, arpeggios, target tones, etc.? (I've found that this is a good supplement to jazz language, but doesn't work unless you're working on the lanaguage a lot).

Thanks again for your post. It's important for us transcribing nerds to hear it once in awhile. Also please note that my "game" was meant to address the same issue, but I guess I didn't articulate that well enough.

[Dave Illig]

So transcribing is just a skill that allows you to do other things.

I hope my post didn't sound like I don't believe in transcribing. I think it is a valuable tool.

I think your game is awesome. Anything that allows you to incorporate what you learn or like or want to play is great. I used to do a variation of your game. I had about 20 chord progressions, each several minutes long as well as blues, tunes and Rthm Chnges recorded. I also had progressions that cycle through fifths or chromatically to practice over. I record a lot also. I find sometimes what I play sounded good at the time, but really wasn't. It gives me an opportunity to tweak it. Now I usually just play over songs.

I have a structured practice regime (as only an anal pilot can) that I will put on here later.

1) How much language do you really need? Does it make sense to transcribe, for example, a Charlie Parker solo, and then not transcribe anything else until you can use every single lick in that solo in a variety of contexts?

I don't have an answer for this, maybe Mark does. When I started learning spanish I took a course that used only 136 essential words. I could get by. The next one I took used the 1000 most commonly used words. I became conversational. With 2 or 3 thousand I imagine I could become fluent. Equate that to jazz and you have BB King vs Oscar Peterson.

I would learn that one lick and drill during my practice regime. Once I get past my structured practice regime I bounce all around. I go in streaks, learning tunes that I forget, licks, chord melody or whatever. So, for me once I learn that lick from a CP solo I would probably go back and steal some more even if I didn't use it. If I stuck to mastering the one lick only I would get bored. BUT, I do try to master the ones I really like. That is where the structured practice kicks in.

2) Do you practice "tweaking" and changing the licks you already know?

Oh yeah, all the time. Mix and match etc, connecting, adding a new note or idea I might pick up, stuff like that.

3) Do you think it makes more sense to learn the language from transcriptions written by others?

Not more sense but certainly valid, I call it spoon feeding. I think lifting lines on your own is extremely important. I think it provides a benefit at many levels, and is essential. That being said, sometimes I will cop something out of transcription book and run with it. Marks LBM's are a good example. He did all the homework, found the best line, wrote it out and then shares it with his students. It is a great way to increase your vocabulary quickly. But....if you don't get in there and do some of it yourself I think a great part of your education will be lacking. I ruined a lot of LP's picking up and putting down the needle. I never wrote them out back then. I have just writing down what I transcribe in the last couple years.

4) How much do you practice scales, arpeggios, target tones, etc.? (I've found that this is a good supplement to jazz language, but doesn't work unless you're working on the lanaguage a lot).

I never pratice scales, but I know them. I occassionally practice chord scales. I picked these and some patterns up from our sax player. For instance in C I will play in arpeggios, Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fma7 G7 etc. They sound cool over changes in the key sometimes. I have time alloted in my practice regime for this kind of stuff. The time I devote to it varies with my mood when I am not in the structure of my practice regime.

I frequently practice arpeggios, usually in a sequence like I am playing over changes. It helps when I am playing a tune like Joy Spring where I tend to want to gravite toward tonal centers. The arps get me thinking about the changes. When I do arpeggios I change the notes. For instance I will play a G7, then a G7b9 then a #9 etc, kind of like how I use to practice chords.

I think in shapes a lot. I am trying to get away from that. Keyboard and horn players don't have shapes. I think it is drawback unique to our instrument. I am getting into 4 note cells to be able to navigate the changes where ever they go. I think Coltrane did a lot of that. I read where he used C D E G over a Cmaj chord 28 times in one of his solos. Of course he mixes them up. There are a lot of possible combinations with four notes. When you mix in phrasing, rests and so on it has a lot of possibilities.

I also practice substitutions with what I already know. For instance if I have a line in Am I like, I can use it over D7 and if I can do that, I can use it over Ab7 (tritone) and now I have a hip way to resolve to Dbmaj7.

Mostly, I play over tunes to practice. Not only do you get to work on changes but you are working on a song so has even more practical application.

Keep in mind, I am a student like everybody else. My expertise is in aviation. This stuff is just my opinion or things that have worked for me. These thoughts may not have any validity, so don't put to much credence in them.

Dave
_________________
The hippest note you can play is a rest.

[nylenny]

Thanks Dave. I would be very interested in learning about your structured practice ideas. I have much more experience playing classical guitar than jazz. Practice regimes are very structured for classical guitar; however, classical tends to be more technique oriented and does not use much improvisation (unless you call trills improvisation). There's also a lot of focus on interpretation and period-appropriateness.

I studied for years with a famous classical teacher, who broke practice into six areas: Technique (1. scales; 2. legato studies; 3. barres (don't get over-confident, some of these would intimidate and drive crazy even world-famous virtuousos); 4. arpeggios -- all from a technique perspective); 5. New Repetoire; and 6. Review of Repetoire.

The key to this routine is having a teacher that has a great ear, can spot your weaknesses and pick tunes that concentrate on the same. So the student is a little more passive in figuring out how to get to the next step, because the teacher is always spotting the student's weaknesses and prescribing tunes to cure the weakness. Goal setting is also a big issue, as it is with jazz. For example, a week's goal might be to balance the tone and volume of your ring and middle finger (on the right hand) or to balance the volume of chords.

As you get more advanced in classical, the focus turns more to interpretation and musicality. The teacher focuses on making the student well rounded (familiar with lots of repetoire) and aware of bringing out counterpoint lines, phrasing, etc.

In jazz, I keep a journal and set goals. I don't always stick with it, but it helps. For example, my goal this week is to integrate certain specific licks and learn a tune. I try to mix it up a lot, which is a concept I got from weight training (if you do the same thing every day, your body and mind get used to it, and you stop developing).

Very interested in hearing your thoughts.

[Mark]

[BarbNY]

Hi Dave & nylonjazz,

I have never participated in a forum before (most of what I saw in other forums was pretty lame), but I must tell you that your recent posts are so interesting, that I'll have to print them out to fully digest all the great advice you offer. One thing I know for sure is that transcribing without application is merely an exercise. I have been guilty of this on more than one occasion. If only there were 48 hours in each day! And even if there were, I still wouldn't be able to play as well as Dave...his CD is always in my stereo. Thanks for sharing.

Barbara

[Dave Illig]

Thank you Barb. Your comments are deeply appreciated. Personally, this is one of the most motivational things I have ever read. You have me inspired. One of my main goals is to share my path in the hope that it will help others.

I am going to make a web page with some mp3's of the things I practice. I still plan to post my practice regime also. I think anybody can reach the level they want. The problem is life gets in the way and sometimes the dedication to practice is interrupted. I am a somewhat obsessed with the instrument which I contribute to my growth as a player.

I played a gig last night with a great piano player. It was interesting to hear how he practices. Much different from me. I will talk about it when I get time to write it all out.

Dave
_________________
The hippest note you can play is a rest.

[thaydon]

I am fairly new to the LBM, but one of the many helpful points of Mark's teaching for me is getting the most mileage out of each language statement (i don't like to use lick). using Mark's language analogy--think about how many different words we actually use in our daily language. it probably isn't as large as we may think. yet we converse just fine and depending on the context a fancy word may make us appear pompous or atleast out of place. that being said if i play through one chorus of a tune and that is all i have to say, then that is all i have to say. i may not blow through 15 choruses the way sonny rollins or bud powell can. and i think Mark would say that is fine.
Although, at this time in my life (lack of time) I don't do much transcribing I love listening to jazz, and what I do is try to memorize and repeat a phrase that I hear and sing it. If I didn't do it that I move on to another phrase. I do this with heads to. If I can't snap my fingers and sing Oleo, I definitely am not going to play it on guitar.
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sincerely yours,

Todd

[Mark]

[bigdaddydannyq]

Transcribing is a fine way to learn the musical language. There are a lot of great phrases out there that someone else made up. But eventually you must just close your eyes and play what you hear and not what someone else heard.The best thing I ever read was from the late great Charlie Parker, he said" Master your instrument , master your music , and then , forget all that shit and just play."
Now that's cool dude!!!
Big daddy

[thaydon]

Mark;

thanks for your response..I've been thinking and listening more for "intensity" can you explain that a bit more (i think i have some idea of what you are talking about: no wasted notes, phrasing) but a further explaination would be great.
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sincerely yours,

Todd

[Mark]