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Secret to Transcribing
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use softward called transcribe, Mark turned me on to it. For me the biggest problem in transcribing is getting the timing exact. Of course straight notes are easy, quarter, eighth, sixteenth etc. I get frustrated when I have to notate dotted notes, unusual phrasing etc. Ballads seem to be the worst. I can play it with no problem but what I put on paper often doesn't match. So,,,, I cheat. I plug the notation into Encore and play it back to see if it sounds correct. If I can't nail it, I record it and save it on an MP3. I have a lot of lines transcribed that aren't quite right, but I can listen to the MP3 and nail it quickly if I have forgotten how it goes.

Ok, is this a good idea?? Probably not in terms of improving my ability to read complex time. But,,,,it gets me back to playing faster so I can spend time with my ax. I am so anal I can spend hours trying to get that dotted sixteenth in the perfect spot. This way, I can nail the lick, have it saved and get on with my playing.

Even players that can't read transcribe. They lift the lick, memorize it and use it. For my buck that is the goal, writing it is just a way to ensure I can relearn it when my 53 year old brain dumps it.

Dave
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Gorecki
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Glenwood, MD

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larry_DC wrote:
Hi Gorecki,

G7 is one of those programs you bring home and start using almost right away. It's very intuitive. I breezed through the tutorial and was notating within an hour or two. Not that my work deserved any air time <LOL> There's probably a demo version on the Sibelius we site.


Hi Larry,

I'm downloading the demo right now. Hopefully I'll get a chance to spend some time with it before the evening is out.

Hey, we should probably have a G7 thread for tips and gotcha's and such.. Razz
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Gorecki
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Glenwood, MD

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
I use softward called transcribe, Mark turned me on to it. For me the biggest problem in transcribing is getting the timing exact. Of course straight notes are easy, quarter, eighth, sixteenth etc. I get frustrated when I have to notate dotted notes, unusual phrasing etc. Ballads seem to be the worst. I can play it with no problem but what I put on paper often doesn't match. So,,,, I cheat. I plug the notation into Encore and play it back to see if it sounds correct. If I can't nail it, I record it and save it on an MP3. I have a lot of lines transcribed that aren't quite right, but I can listen to the MP3 and nail it quickly if I have forgotten how it goes.

Ok, is this a good idea?? Probably not in terms of improving my ability to read complex time. But,,,,it gets me back to playing faster so I can spend time with my ax. I am so anal I can spend hours trying to get that dotted sixteenth in the perfect spot. This way, I can nail the lick, have it saved and get on with my playing.

Even players that can't read transcribe. They lift the lick, memorize it and use it. For my buck that is the goal, writing it is just a way to ensure I can relearn it when my 53 year old brain dumps it.


Hey Dave!

Have you ever worked with midi guitar controllers? They've become pretty darn good and I on a few occations where I wanted parts I already knew how to play, I would just track them right into midi. Granted sometimes my timing may be off to the sequencer (or it doesn't know the part as well as I do..Laughing) but it definitely helps get things in to a useful form where the worse case is I'll have to move a note or two or just try again. And it gets more forgiving after a while. Wink

Btw, I understand you and I have a not guitar related common interest though you've taken it to an entirely different level....around 35,000 ft? Man, practicing departure stalls in those things must be a hoot! Laughing my buns off!
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
Even players that can't read transcribe. They lift the lick, memorize it and use it. For my buck that is the goal, writing it is just a way to ensure I can relearn it when my 53 year old brain dumps it.


Dave,

Great seeing you over here! As you well know, this is something that we've discussed on many an occasion. Even my good friend Wolf (Marshall) would concur that written notation is an inexact science at best, and that's coming from an author whom many consider to be the most skilled guitar transcriber and historian of our time.

I certainly agree that the writing process is only an option, and one that has its own purpose in documenting material for recall and for improving our overall understanding of timing. I often find myself going back to things that I've learned by ear from 25-30 years ago. While it would probably be tucked away in the recesses of my longterm memory if I hadn't written it down, seeing what I notated instantly transports me back in time to when I was sitting there, guitar in hand, and playing along with an Albert King, Oscar Peterson, Miles, George Benson, etc, etc.

For the record, I really think it's worth struggling over the timing in a slow blues or ballad, for one reason. It intensifies the listening process and improves the ear, which is monumental when it comes to creative improvising or composing.

- Mark
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes, I never wrote anything down that I lifted until we argued over it for about a year. You won, I have a "book", albeit a small one. I think there is a benefit to struggling with the time also so a midi guitar controller would probably be counter productive for me, even though it sounds like a great asset.

Btw, for Goreki, if I stall a 737 at 35,000 feet, I really screwed up. I have done them in the simulator though, and it rocks!

Dave
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the same issue with rhythms. I can figure stuff out quickly and play it on guitar, but if the rhythms are complex, it takes time to write out.

Complex rhythm is a lot harder for me to transcribe than melodies or harmonies -- especially the rhythms in some slow blues solos. Fast bebop solos are the easiest, because you can slow them down, and there's not a lot of rhythmic complexity. I also find it more difficult to transcribe solos from artists that play around with the beat (ahead or behind the beat), like a lot of horn players that play behind the beat, especially when the bass is in front of the beat. If the rhythm is complex when that's happening, I feel like jumping out the window!

I've found one trick to dealing with rhythms, however. I mark out the beats on Transcribe. Sometimes I'll even mark out the eight notes. You can track those pretty reliably from the drummer's cymbals. Then I get the rhythm fairly close and write it out in G7. The next day, I'll check my work. It is absolutely amazing that merely coming back to a difficult rhythm later makes it loads easier to figure out.

I've also found that a lot of transcriptions are not exact, which has made me a little more comfortable writing things out approximately. This especially applies to note durations.
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the tips.

Dave
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Gorecki
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Glenwood, MD

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:

Btw, for Goreki, if I stall a 737 at 35,000 feet, I really screwed up. I have done them in the simulator though, and it rocks!


Ohhh I bet, at least you have plenty of time to recover at that altitude but I bet a spin would put passengers into serious thoughts of flying another carrier. Good thing for Sims! Laughing

My CFI went on to fly heavies as well before I could even start an instrument rating so I stopped there at least for now.

Sorry folks for the deviation, it’s part of my job to help keep us on topic and sure enough, I’m the first one to take us off! My apologies. Embarassed

Nice to meet ya Dave. Wink
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Mark
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylonjazz wrote:
I've also found that a lot of transcriptions are not exact, which has made me a little more comfortable writing things out approximately. This especially applies to note durations.


Nylon,

Naturally I've seen your work and believe that writing rhythm accurately is one of your strengths, unusual among guitarists in general. The interesting thing about note durations is that even if they are reasonably accurate, it's still interpretive at best. This is even true in classical music, particularly with respect to the guitar.

Genre aside, consider a simple quarter note, for instance. It's rarely played full legato and the degree that it might be played staccato is anyone's guess, so you have to hear it and not just see it on paper to really get the gist of the duration. That's why when I write out even a simple blues lick and read it back later, my memory of how it sounded when playing along with the artist is rekindled. The amusing thing is that your ear really can make the distinction, even if you can't capture the detail in notation.

What proved this to me, believe it or not, was my first adventures in MIDI sequencing 20+ years ago, because everything in duration and editing was a numbers game back then. What was considered low rez was dividing a beat (quarter note) into 24 steps, while the high rez was typically four times that amount, or 96 steps. At first you'd think that it's ridiculous to break down a beat that fine, until you ask your ear its opinion on how long you want that melody or bass note to ring and find out that it prefers 78 over 72 and really can tell the difference. How can anyone possibly capture that level of aural detail in notation, in a manner where the reader gets it? You simply have to hear it or take your best guess based on familiarity.

- Mark
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Illig wrote:
I use softward called transcribe, Mark turned me on to it. For me the biggest problem in transcribing is getting the timing exact.


I use Transcribe! too. And have same problem with notating precise
rhythm. I use MIDI controller for transcribing - M-Audio Axiom 25 -
short 25-keys keyboard that fits on my desk. I tried using MIDI guitar
as somebody here suggested by I find that while my timing may be
better on MIDI guitar - since I do not play piano at all - it produces too
many artifacts that my guitar synth translates as notes - to be useful
as far as notation goes. Unless you play very very cleanly.

For notation I currently experiment with BIAB - record MIDI option
and Finale's PrintMusic 2007.

I asked about transcribing on BIAB forum and one good advice I got
was to concentrate on rhythm first - ie. listen to slowed down phrase
- to about 50% or some tempo that still gives you coherent rhythm -
and then record it into BIAB (or Finale) using some only one or few
notes. Then - once you get rhythm right - drag those notes vertically
to get correct pitches.

JT
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woland,

That's a great tip for working with the software. Thanks -- sounds like a real time saver.

From a "learning" perspective, however, I don't agree with their forum. What you are describing is similar to how "they" teach melodic dictation in traditional music schools. First take down the rhythm, and then fill in the melody notes. I got passing marks in these classes in college (even got a "B" once Wink !!), but I couldn't figure out a Charlie Parker lick if my life depended on it.

Part of the trick to learning to transcribe is to write it down sometimes; others, just play along with it, enjoy the lick, tweak it, etc. etc. Make it a game. You'll do it more that way. (Check out the book "Golf My Way" by Jack Nicolas --it has lots of great ideas for practicing guitar in it if you use your imagination).

I find the "legit" method impractical as a guitarist, because what I'm really striving (note that I said "striving" and not "doing" Wink ) is to be able to copy phrases when playing with other musicians or just play along with recordings. And I want to learn "language" -- not just pass a dictation test.

What I've found is that the best way to approach dictation (and many other things -- like learning new tunes) is to vary your methods as much as possible. In other words, try taking the rhythm down first one day. The next day take the notes first. Sometimes figure out bass lines; others, chords. You always want to be treading new ground; otherwise, the progress is too slow. Anyways, that's just my opinion as a fellow student, and I'm sure lots of people disagree, but it's worked for me.

Someone once told me another trick that actually works -- ask yourself "what is it about this lick that I like?" (Don't learn stuff you don't like -- it's the quickest path to giving up the instrument Wink ) Maybe it's the use of the mixolydian bebop scale, with the #7 on the off-beat. Maybe it's the use of a sequence in sixths. But understanding why you like it will help you recognize a similar lick the next time you hear it and help you to memorize the instant phrase.

Using the above method, if you transcribe a lot of stuff from one mentor, you'll begin to understand what you like about their style. For example, Robin Ford adds sixths and (sometimes) ninths to a standard pentatonic scale. My favorite RF licks have sixths in them. Once I figured that out, I was on cloud nine! Now, mind you, I don't sound as good as RF by any stretch of the imagination (not even in the same zip code -- not even on my birthday -- not even in my mom's opinion Exclamation ), but I'm a smidgen closer than where I was before, and that is really cool.
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nylonjazz wrote:

From a "learning" perspective, however, I don't agree with their forum. What you are describing is similar to how "they" teach melodic dictation in traditional music schools. First take down the rhythm, and then fill in the melody notes.


That is a good comment. I actually find it much easier to do it the
other way around - figure out the melody then tweak it to do rhythm.
For some reason playing one note over a lick is HARD - I always want
to play countermelody.

As for the software - I also tried Anvil Studio but I was not happy with
the way it notated input from MIDI kbrd. Between Finale and BIAB I
prefer Finaly for recording MIDI input. But BIAB has simple way of
editing notation by draging notes around to change pitch or duration.
I did not learn enough Finale yet to do same thing - - perhaps it has
similar tool.
BTW - I downloaded fully-functional Finale PrintMusic 2007 from their
website - it is 30-days demo - full product is about $70 so affordable.

JT
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BarbNY



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 29
Location: NY

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:24 pm    Post subject: Help with G7 Reply with quote

nylonjazz wrote:
Hi Larry,

I use Transcribe and G7 as well. Transcribe is excellent. G7 can be frustrating at times because I can't always get the symbols that I want (for example, circled string numbers (as you would find in classical guitar music) and up and down picking marks. Do you know how to do those?


nylonjazz:

You can find how to notate picking directions in G7 by using the Keypad. The 4th button from the left (on top) is the "articulation" button, and you'll see the up (up bow) and down (down bow) symbols right there. To notate circled string numbers, go to "Create" & scroll down to "Special symbol." Scroll down to the line following "Guitar" and you'll see the circled string choices there. (A short-cut would be to simply hit "Z" on your keyboard & the symbols will display.) Hope this helps.
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nylenny



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Posts: 291

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Barb. Much appreciated.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: Help with G7 Reply with quote

BarbNY wrote:
You can find how to notate picking directions in G7 by using the Keypad. The 4th button from the left (on top) is the "articulation" button, and you'll see the up (up bow) and down (down bow) symbols right there. To notate circled string numbers, go to "Create" & scroll down to "Special symbol." Scroll down to the line following "Guitar" and you'll see the circled string choices there. (A short-cut would be to simply hit "Z" on your keyboard & the symbols will display.) Hope this helps.


Barbara,

Great seeing you here! Your disdain for poorly-written software manuals is showing and clearly evident in that post Laughing.

It's articulate and packed with valuable information, so much so that it reads the way a great blues or jazz solo should sound, with not one wasted note (word) to be found. No surprise to me, though. It's what I've come to expect from you. Hope to see more of your posts in the near future, and thanks for participating in our new forum.

- Mark
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