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Meaning of the BLUES
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:11 am    Post subject: Meaning of the BLUES Reply with quote

I am reposting from rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz

Question that was asked was about connection between more
traditional form of blues progression:
| I | / | / | / | IV | / | I | / | V | IV | I | V |

to jazz-blues one:
| I | IV | I | v I | IV | #ivdim | I | VI | ii | V | I VI | ii V |

Here is very complete answer by Joey Goldstein:
------------------------------------------------------------------
The question is really...

How the hell do get from

| I | / | / | / | IV | / | I | / | V | / | I | / |

to

| I | / | / | / | IV | / | I | / | V | IV | I | V |

or

| I | IV | I | v I | IV | #ivdim | I | VI | ii | V | I VI | ii V |

Well....

Basically the blues progression spends some time in each of the 3
functional areas of a key, the Tonic function area (T), the SubDominant
function area (SD), and the Dominant function area (D).

Within a major (or minor) key a progression needs to move around
between at least 2 of these areas, and preferably all 3, in order for
things to feel like they are moving. I.e. If a chord progression consisted
only of T function chords it wouldn't feel like it was progressing. Etc.

So, one of the things that more trad blues players do to make the D
section (one of the sections that is non T) of my prototype progression
more interesting is to spend some time in the SD function area (the
other non T area). They could have gone IV-V or IIm-V (SD D) too,
there instead of the more "rootsy" V-IV (D-SD).

One way to make 4 bars of one area more interesting is to briefly go
into one of the other areas.
So
D SD
I | | | |IV
can become
T SD T SD
I |IV | | |IV
C F C F
or
T D T SD
I |V | | |IV
C G C F
although the former is more common.

One way to get from the I chord to the IV chord is to go through V7/IV
("V7-of-IV") aka I7.
So
I | | | |IV
becomes
I | | |V7/IV |IV
C C7 F

A general rule of jazz harmony is that any dom7 chord can be paired up
with its related IIm7 chord (a min7 chord, or min7b5 chord, whose root
is the 5th of the dom7 chord). So V7/IV can become \IIm7_V7/IV, aka Vm7_I7.

So
I | | | |IV
becomes
I | | |\IIm7_V7/IV |IV
C Gm7 C7 F

With the SD chord back in bar 2 we have:
T SD T SD
I | |I |\IIm7_V7/IV |IV
C F C Gm7 C7 F
This is the familiar first 5 bars of the most common "jazz blues"
progression.

One way to get back to a I chord from the IV chord is via #IVdim7, which
is also an inversion of Idim7.
Eg.
T SD T SD T
I |IV |I |\IIm7_V7/IV |IV | |I
C F T Gm7 C7 F
becomes
T SD T SD T
I |IV |I |\IIm7_V7/IV |IV |#IVdim7 |I
C F C Gm7 C7 F F#dim7 C

If we decide that we want IIm-V in bars 9 and 10 (rather than the
"rootsy" V-IV) then we might ask how we can approach these chords.
One way to approach IIm is with its related V7, V7/IIm ("V7-of-IIm"),
aka VI7.
T SD T SD T SD D T
I |IV |I |\IIm7_V7/IV |IV |#IVdim7 |I | |IIm |V7 |I
C F C Gm7 C7 F F#dim7 C Dm G7 C
becomes
T SD T SD T SD D T
I |IV |I |\IIm7_V7/IV |IV |#IVdim7 |I |V7/IIm|IIm |V7 |I
C F C Gm7 C7 F F#dim7 C A7 Dm G7 C

We might precede A7 with its related IIm7, Em7 or Em7b5, to get this:
T SD T SD T SD D T
I |IV|I |\IIm7_V7/IV |IV |#IVdim7 |I |\IIm7b5_V7/IIm|IIm |V7 |I
C F C Gm7 C7 F F#dim7 C Em7b5 A7 Dm G7 C

One way to approach Em7b5, from C, is via F.
T SD T SD T SD SD D T
I |IV|I |\IIm7_V7/IV |IV |#IVdim7 |I IV|\IIm7b5_V7/IIm|IIm |V7 |I
C F C Gm7 C7 F F#dim7 C F Em7b5 A7 Dm G7 I

One way to make the last 2 bars of the form more interesting than just 2
bars of C, going back to the top of the form, to another C chord, is
like this:

T
I | ||
C C C
becomes
T D T
I |V7 ||I
C G7 C
which becomes
T SD D T
I |\IIm_V7/ ||I
C Dm G7 C
which becomes
T SD D T
I V7/IIm |\IIm_V7/ ||I
C A7 Dm G7 C

And we now have the familiar jazz blues progression in its entirety. Try
making all the maj triads into dom7 chords too, which is the norm.:

T SD T
I |IV|I |\IIm7_V7/IV |
C F C Gm7 C7

SD T SD
IV |#IVdim7 |I IV|\IIm7b5_V7/IIm|
F F#dim7 C F Em7b5 A7

SD D T SD D T
IIm |V7 |I V7/IIm |\IIm_V7/ ||I
Dm G7 C A7 Dm G7 C

--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
---------------------------------------------------------

I hope it is useful,

JT
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: Meaning of the BLUES Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
I hope it is useful


JT,

With all due respect to Mr. Goldstein (and after taking TEN Advils Wink ), that overly esoteric explanation is absolutely useless and the antithesis of how I think about and teach jazz. I might add that it's the very reason why aspiring players give up the quest, as I did many years ago before seeing the light. It was also a compelling motivation to write my recent "Seven Steps to Changes Heaven" article, which will be published in the next issue of Jazz Improv Magazine.

The difference between a traditional I-IV-V blues and a jazz player's blues doesn't need to be dissected with a mental microscope. It's just a different chord progression, period. Christian didn't think and over-analyze like that, nor did Wes, Pass, Benson, etc. Hmm.. guess who I'm going to side with?

This seeming need among many players and teachers to complicate the simple is the most alarming problem in the jazz educational circle, a real disease of the highest magnitude in my opinion. It's something that I discuss on almost a daily basis with two of my closest colleagues, Henry Johnson and Wolf Marshall. And just for the record, I have yet to find one person who thinks like that and can actually play jazz the way I like to hear it.

Thanks for sharing, but this goes right into the jazz trash bin for me. Geez... if anyone wants to understand a jazz blues just learn "Tenor Madness" or "Billie's Bounce" and have some fun! Put away the microscopes and the slide rules. Wink Trust me. I know. All for now...

- Mark
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Meaning of the BLUES Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

With all due respect to Mr. Goldstein (and after taking TEN Advils Wink ), that overly esoteric explanation is absolutely useless and the antithesis of how I think about and teach jazz.


Hey Mark - no problem whatsoever. I understand the point about grey
theory and green tree of blues. Theory is secondary, a posteriori set of
ideas - Charlie Christian certainly did not sit down with a piece of paper
and said "hmmm - lessee how we can make that tired ole'blues more
interesting...".
But I do disagree (somewhat) about utter uselessness of such
explanations. Certainly they do not serve much of a help of playing -
human beings are not wired to take complicated theory and process it in
real time to produce interesting solos. But I think that they make
interesting puzzles that may perhaps aid in categorizing ideas.
On purely logical level.

Peace!

JT
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BarbNY



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 29
Location: NY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Meaning of the BLUES Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
Mark wrote:

With all due respect to Mr. Goldstein (and after taking TEN Advils Wink ), that overly esoteric explanation is absolutely useless and the antithesis of how I think about and teach jazz.


But I do disagree (somewhat) about utter uselessness of such
explanations. Certainly they do not serve much of a help of playing -
human beings are not wired to take complicated theory and process it in
real time to produce interesting solos. But I think that they make
interesting puzzles that may perhaps aid in categorizing ideas.
On purely logical level.

Peace!

JT


JT

What gets lost in over-analyzing music is that music is a "language," an aural language that is best learned by listening & absorbing what we hear. I was an English major in college, and my course list included a wide variety of novels, plays, & poetry by some of the world's finest writers. Never once did we sit down & analyze sentence structure. "Hmm, let's see, Tolstory used 2 prepositional phrases, 3 appositives and 4 homonyms in that paragraph." That is basically what many jazz educators are doing now. If I had to read Tolstoy in that way, I would never have been able to enjoy a single word. Naturally, all of our interests are different, and if the "puzzles" hold your interest, that's great. For me, it's all about the music.
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Meaning of the BLUES Reply with quote

BarbNY wrote:

I was an English major in college, and my course list included a wide variety of novels, plays, & poetry by some of the world's finest writers. Never once did we sit down & analyze sentence structure. "Hmm, let's see, Tolstory used 2 prepositional phrases, 3 appositives and 4 homonyms in that paragraph." That is basically what many jazz educators are doing now.


I only put it as sort of intellectual curiosity item - with somewhat tongue
in cheek title "Meaning of the BLUES" - almost added "the" to "meaning"
but thought it would have been heavy handed Wink

Yes - I also suffered thru lessons on Autumn Leaves that started with
writing of 12 different scales over the chart sheet and then hopelessly
trying to chase progression with scale fragments....

ALL analogies are by defintion false - only present similarity of structures
but infering conclusion that some relation of objects in one realm is true
because same relation holds for objects in other real is not logical.
Esp for analogies between blues that is even more primeval and
non-verbal than most other music and verbal realm like Russian lit.
Altho those Russian do have the blues - Tolstoy too - must be all those
enormous empty spaces there.
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BarbNY



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 29
Location: NY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Meaning of the BLUES Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:


ALL analogies are by defintion false - only present similarity of structures
but infering conclusion that some relation of objects in one realm is true
because same relation holds for objects in other real is not logical.
Esp for analogies between blues that is even more primeval and
non-verbal than most other music and verbal realm like Russian lit.
Altho those Russian do have the blues - Tolstoy too - must be all those
enormous empty spaces there.


An analogy is simply a similarity, a way to compare one thing to another; certainly not literally. Some of the most respected artists in the music world, including Mark's reference to Henry Johnson & Wolf Marshall, have described music as a language long before I did, and I think it is a fair and valid comparison.
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to my guitar studies I am learning Spanish. I am going to do some posts on it later about the parallels to the music language.

I took three years of Spanish in school. It was taught like this music post. Tons of grammer and syntax. After three years all I could say was Hola! I am no sure how I passed the course, but I did. I passed it on a cerebral level. I couldn’t communicate.

Seven months ago I took a level one course based on how children learn to speak. It cost $38!! No grammar, no explanations, just pure language learning. I completed all three levels of the course in about 4 months practicing only 30 minutes a day. I can speak Spanish quite well now and am continuing to get better and better. I have gone on to other more advanced courses to continue my studies.

I am convinced that this is the same principal players like Wes and George used to learn how to play. Some anal retentive person came along later and analyzed the crap out of it. Defend that deep theory all you want. Nobody I love to listen to plays or thinks that way.

I don’t know a pluperfect verb from a past subjunctive verb and I don’t care to. I can go to South America and get along just fine.

Tengo que practicar mi guitarra ahora, nos vemos,

Dave
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Meaning of the BLUES Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
But I do disagree (somewhat) about utter uselessness of such explanations. Certainly they do not serve much of a help of playing - human beings are not wired to take complicated theory and process it in real time to produce interesting solos. But I think that they make interesting puzzles that may perhaps aid in categorizing ideas. On purely logical level.


JT,

I understand your point of view, so let me elaborate on mine. On the one hand, it's cool to be open-minded to any slant on the subject of jazz and blues improvisation. On the other hand, I'm speaking purely as a passionate music teacher who has observed FAR too many needless train wrecks over 35+ years of coaching others. Plus I was a victim myself of misinformation and misguidance, so even though I was 100% sincere as a student and willing to work and study as hard as anyone, I actually gave up my quest as a result of being led down the wrong path.

JT, you may be intelligent enough to make the distinction between what is credible and what is not, and there may be some who have an inordinate amount of disposable time available to justify hours spent thinking in what I would call an abstract manner. However, that is not the case for most students, and this is precisely where my concern as a coach lies.

The BIG problem here is credibility, or lack of it. Many students get lost because they fail to distinguish between reality and fantasy in what they read and hear from others. If the analysis is over their head (common), the usual conclusion is that they are lacking the talent or what it takes to speak the language. That's why I gave up, because I was misled and felt that I didn't have the ability, until I realized that the vast majority of those exuding these overly-analytical explanations couldn't play their way out of paper bag. Sad, but painfully true.

At that point in my career I decided to bypass anyone who appeared credible and decided to go right to the source, the proven players I admired. It wasn't so much about learning this or that great lick or solo, although the real world core language has made me the player and composer that I am today. Much more importantly, it was how Wes, Oscar, GB, Kenny, Bird, Trane, Miles, Tom Scott, and countless traditional blues artists got from point A to point B. You see, the only "puzzle" I was interested in solving was how to get on the right ship, instead of wasting valuable time describing the water. Wink

For all of the above reasons, I still stand by my "useless" comment, but... different strokes for different folks. Btw, it's great to see such a stirring conversation, so thanks to everyone for participating! All for now...

- Mark
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Meaning of the BLUES Reply with quote

BarbNY wrote:
Some of the most respected artists in the music world, including Mark's reference to Henry Johnson & Wolf Marshall, have described music as a language long before I did, and I think it is a fair and valid comparison.


One cannot argue with such authorities - but I feel that similarity ends
on the part that music - like language has hierarchical structure and
learning music - like learning language usually means learning and using
whole sequences without much importance about exact grammar or
syntax rules. That part - absolutely no question. However playing music
is in my opinion not entirely similar to using language because it involves
completely abstract, non-verbal part of our brain. Music is not about
communicating information - so it is not a language in that respect.
But one can actually make a stronger statement that all good literature
or poetry is like music - the rhythm of the verse and sound of words is
often more important than their meaning. Anyway - I think we are all
on same page here so I will quit playing advocatus diaboli and splitting
hair in my dilettante way looking for myriads of hidden angels.
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I saw this post ........I felt like the caveman ummm What ?It's way over my head........I don't break down anything to that level ,even life.But someone mite get something out of it,some people have brains that just work at such a level it's just out there.My friend from Germany is that way ...he thinks on such a high level and has so much talent.I just dig disagreeing with respect.
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Mark
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
When I saw this post ........I felt like the caveman ummm What? It's way over my head.


"Caveman" Dean, Laughing

Bingo! You totally underlined my point as well as the Charles Mingus quote that I run into the ground, because my primary goal as an educator is to make the complicated simple. Too often in music if something goes over someone's head it's because of a failure to communicate. In other words, it's the messenger who is typically at fault, not the recipient. There are exceptions, of course. But not many, from what I've seen over the years.

JT,

Yes, all along I've gotten the impression that we are on the "same page" regarding language parallels, yet I do think that you're choosing to split hairs, because there's FAR more that the two have in common than not.

Even what you said about "abstract and non-verbal" is a stretch for me, because blues music is most certainly organic and vocal-oriented, and even when I play a solo I'm always hearing a singer in my head or singing what I'm playing to myself. I do that when I compose melodies, too. And the same goes for jazz music and the connection between horn players in speaking the language. The bottom line for me is that the language correlation is all about personal expression while talking, writing, or playing. The expression is taking place regardless of whether I'm dispensing "information" or just moving others emotionally.

Dave,

Loved your Spanish post! Okay, I forgot who shared the following ad for a language course with me, but it was uncanny in that it was right after I had completed the "Seven Steps" article.

For the sake of those who haven't seen it...

"...And it doesn't matter what level you are currently at (beginner, intermediate, or advanced), Rocket Spanish is packed full of quality step-by-step audio lessons, over 500 pages of written lessons, games and other resources to rapidly advance your learning no matter what your level...

After all, learning to speak another language is a lot like learning to play an instrument. If you were learning the guitar for instance, the best way to improve your playing would be to imitate and play in time with professional guitar players. The same is true with learning Spanish. You need to listen to and speak lots of Spanish words and phrases from native Spanish speakers, to really power-up your Spanish learning and fluency."

That ad still cracks me up. Laughing But guess what? It makes perfect sense to me!

- Mark
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Larry_DC



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
When I saw this post ........I felt like the caveman


<LOL> Haven't we all had that feeling? Articles like that one used to intimidate me, too. Disagreements aside, if you are curious enough to try out the examples there might be some value in the exercise. I would just zero in on one progression at a time, apply it to a song I may all ready know and move on to the next one. It might take a week or two to get through them all, but that's normal. I bet you'll find it's an easier process than you imagine.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larry_DC wrote:
Dean wrote:
When I saw this post ........I felt like the caveman


<LOL> Haven't we all had that feeling? Articles like that one used to intimidate me, too. Disagreements aside, if you are curious enough to try out the examples there might be some value in the exercise. I would just zero in on one progression at a time, apply it to a song I may all ready know and move on to the next one. It might take a week or two to get through them all, but that's normal. I bet you'll find it's an easier process than you imagine.


Larry,

Although I agree with you, there are three very important distinctions to be made:

1) Concepts and formulas like those shown at the start of this topic may indeed have some value, but assuming that they come from a credible source (debatable), that value will be to more advanced players who already possess the language. Otherwise they'll only confuse aspiring students and lead them down a mental path of frustration. IMO, their time would be FAR better spent doing more useful things. Hence all of my previous comments, because most of the students I meet, regardless of age, haven't paid their dues, don't know the language, and are like a ship without a rudder drifting in a sea of confusion.

2) Consider The Source (CTS). Frequently many students (btw, we're all students on different levels) make a critical mistake in assuming that just because the author has a degree, books and/or CDs on the market, teaches, performs, etc, etc, they must be credible.

3) Given the above, one only has to observe and listen to determine the truth. But sadly in our society today, folks have a way of accepting what they see as gospel truth and then parroting it to others, perpetuating falsehoods and myths. No knock on Mr. Goldstein, but I invite any of you to simply visit his website and listen to his music. Then ask yourself if he really knows anything about how to play the blues? I've already got my answer. CTS!

- Mark
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

Even what you said about "abstract and non-verbal" is a stretch for me, because blues music is most certainly organic and vocal-oriented, and even when I play a solo I'm always hearing a singer in my head or singing what I'm playing to myself. I do that when I compose melodies, too.


Yes - but blues being vocal-oriented is one thing. When I say that music
is non-verbal I do not mean it cannot not vocal-oriented. When George
Benson is singing scat what exactly is he saying? When listening to blues
or jazz you do not do any mapping from sound to words or concepts.
If somebody translated blues lyrics into Tagalog or Mandarin and you
keep hearing them and eventually learn to sing them phonetically you
would do just as well in composing solos. Words are only important for
rhythm and sound - not for meaning.
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marksound



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
Words are only important for rhythm and sound - not for meaning.

Shocked

Surely I'm misunderstanding that statement.
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