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Meaning of the BLUES
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Mark
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
Yes - but blues being vocal-oriented is one thing. When I say that music is non-verbal I do not mean it cannot not vocal-oriented. When George Benson is singing scat what exactly is he saying? When listening to blues or jazz you do not do any mapping from sound to words or concepts. If somebody translated blues lyrics into Tagalog or Mandarin and you keep hearing them and eventually learn to sing them phonetically you would do just as well in composing solos. Words are only important for rhythm and sound - not for meaning.


JT.

Understood, but I still think you're splitting hairs and belaboring a tiny issue without making any compelling points. Words are indeed important for meaning in music, especially with regards to vocal lyrics and the fact that many of us instrumentalists familiar with standards have those words and meaning in our minds and ears while playing and improvising.

Maybe not all of the time, but enough so that there IS a language connection and parallel on that front, too.

- Mark
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Dean



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iam trying to stay up with this post.....all I can add is that a lot of the greats in music played by ear or had a sound in their head .They did not know theory or chords.They learned from each other and would make it theirs.Music is just a sound that pleases,makes you want to drink wine or dance sometimes even cry.I play for me so all the rights and wrongs don't matter if it sounds good.It's a mood and expression.Look at all the kids Berry White made happen.A lot of doctors listen to jazz when working ,it's calming and the rythem helps them work.I will agree with Mark ,a good teacher makes a world of difference..it can make or brake you.
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Dean's hitting the right chord. Huh? Mr. Green

What seems to be getting lost in all of this is the reference to 'language' is far more than the idea of 'communication', it is an association to a process of learning. The process involved in learning a 'language' can be done in many ways. All of us learned our first language by 'imitation' of others, not by grammatical rules and analytical associations. Most first words were 'momma' or 'dadda'. The true beginning of learning!

Dave's Spanish example is very bang on! Most often people attempt to learn Spanish in school, the problem being, the process of teaching Spanish in school is tailored to produce a result to pass tests and complete a curriculum....NOT to teach a person to functionally speak Spanish! Where Dave's new approach is more geared toward foundational skills for communication in Spanish.

This is what I believe what all of this is about, not communication but a means of learning!

I believe music 'languages' and programming 'languages' are more relative than verbal communication. Both music and 'code' have commonalities. Syntax, keywords, expression evaluation most often are similar in some way. Just like music keys, notes, scales are relative to most music.

Soooo..when a person starts out writing software and starts the beginning processes hearing things like 'polymorphism', 'extrapolation', 'inheritance'...and so on...will be confused! They should only worry about that first 'Hello World' application and build from there. This conversation is exactly that in my eyes. To LEARN is best approached from the simplest means just like how we learned to speak a language followed by writing, reading, etc etc etc....

Am I helping or just confusing the matter even more? I dunno?
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marksound wrote:

Surely I'm misunderstanding that statement.


Words as lyrics - their musical value such as melody or rhythm
is more important than their meaning - blues could be san in Latin
and be just as effective as art.
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marksound



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
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Location: OKUSA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
marksound wrote:

Surely I'm misunderstanding that statement.


Words as lyrics - their musical value such as melody or rhythm
is more important than their meaning - blues could be san in Latin
and be just as effective as art.

Respectfully, if that's what you really believe then you don't understand blues at all and I'm pretty sure nothing I or anyone else can say will convince you otherwise.
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HJ



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello to all,
This is an interesting topic and I hope to offer a little insight on the subject. Hi JT, it seems that you've posted something that struck a "chord" with just about everyone. Smile First, let's look at this as what it is: just a formula. It has no value to anyone who doesn't have the keys and experience to use it. In other words, if you have no experience in DNA data, a DNA code mapping chart is like gibberish to you and there's nothing there that you can apply anything to. It's useless in your day-to-day experience. So what Mark is telling you is the truth. I've been down that road of frustration myself.

This is one of the first traps of disinformation that aspiring players fall into. It serves to lead them down a path of frustration and it's a big waste of their time. We must remember that these formulas and such things are the results of people analyzing things to death. This is the product of academia, not musicians sharing information. Trust me, when I hang with George Benson or Pat Martino, we don't share information in this way; never have, and we never will. If you meet them and ask them about these kind of formulas, they'll reply, "huh? What are you talking about, man? It's just the blues"! I got this reply from GB 25 years ago about such formulas.

Another thing, words to songs ARE most important no matter what genre they're in. When I was growing up, all the older musicians knew the words to the songs they were playing, and demanded that my generation learn them too. Here's why: the words contain the emotional content of the songs that we play, especially standards. They tell us immediately what the song is about and the FEELING it's supposed to convey to people.

This is why you hear "My Funny Valentine" sung and played as a ballad. It's a story about love found and requesting it to stay. Why do you think Miles is known as one of the most lyrical interpreters of songs? He knew all the words to the standards he played and recorded. He just converted the feeling of the lyrics into music. He learned this from the guys who came before him, so this way of musical interpretation is by no means a new concept. This information was common among musicians, but not to academia which tries to make everything about theories and formulas.

And I cannot say this enough: Jazz is a musical language. It is as simple as that. This has been told to me by every great jazz master I've hung out and played with. EVERY of genre of music has it's language, or "syntax" and jazz is no different. If you don't know the language of R&B and have never heard it, you wont be able play it. The same with any other genre. In order to learn ANY language, you must first HEAR it, and mimic it. If you've never heard the blues, how can you ever hope to play or sing it? Music is not created in a vacuum, this stuff has been recorded and laid out historically by all the artists that came before you so you can feed you ears this sonic information in order to learn this musical language.

We learn how to talk and communicate BEFORE we go school. In school, we learn about the formulas for speech. If we don't learn them, will that stop us from communicating with anyone else? I don't think so. And let's address this issue: communication. Well JT, I am here to tell you from experience that yes, music IS about communication. When you play for an audience, you are communicating with them. And, the main objective is to have your music move people. If you're not doing that, what would be the reward for a person coming to see and hear you play?

Show me a musician who doesn't communicate and move people, and I will show you a musician who does not work on a regular basis. If you had ever got a chance to see groups like Cannonball Adderley and Horace Silver you would know exactly what I'm talking about. So JT, music IS about communicating and connecting with your audience on the most basic level of all; an emotional one. It's the most important thing of all.

The thing that gets me the most is why people tend to want to "reinvent the wheel." I'm a person who does not like wasting time and want to see some results for my hard work. If you know for a fact that these things are what worked for the greatest innovators of music, why would you WANT to waste time by doing something else? How many people do you have to hear it from before you realize the correct path to follow to reach your goals?

I'm sorry if this post is running too long. So, I will leave you with this question: if there are two lines for a musical learning opportunity, one line says "Learn all the Formulas for the Blues", and the other line says, "Learn how to play like B.B. King", which line will you be standing in? I'll be in that real LONG one!

Henry Johnson
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HJ



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woland99 wrote:
marksound wrote:

Surely I'm misunderstanding that statement.


Words as lyrics - their musical value such as melody or rhythm
is more important than their meaning - blues could be san in Latin
and be just as effective as art.


Hi again JT,
No, the blues cannot be sang in any language and be as effective because another language would strip it of it's ethnic culture. And this is the very reason it is not. It's also the reason why Operas are not sung in English. The blues is derived from the African-American experience and it's a cultural music. One of the strangest things to hear is a Japanese singer performing the blues. They don't sing it in Japanese, they sing it in English so that it does not lose it's authenticity, because they get it. Just thought that I'd mention this along with everything else blues related.

Henry
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Dean



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HJ, I just want to say I understood everything you had to say...I saw BB King in Shreveport ,La a few years ago ....I felt like a 13 year old boy getting his first kiss....Man what a show...I stood up and yelled ,just chills running up and down .If you get to see BB King and don't know what the blues are ,your just all wrong.Sometimes I just put on a back ground cd and close my eyes and play,when it goes good I feel it inside.I've got aways to go ,but I'll work on it till I am gone.Buddy Guy is one of my favorites,too.His vocial range is unreal.....playing wise still has not got his full due.One of the best.
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thaydon



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:15 am    Post subject: Good teaching Reply with quote

Thanks HJ and Mark for responding. This is a topic that I am passionate about, particularly because my dissertation topic is about quality instruction in public school classrooms.
First, I would say that Mark is by far the best teacher I have ever had: either in music, sports, education or higher education- and I have never met him (only through LBM). A few months ago I showed Mark's "Seven Steps" article to a top researcher in the field of special education who plays jazz bass on the side. After reading the article this Professor's response was, "I wish all educators would approach education like this". I think good teaching is rare and when it occurs it has to be pointed out. I have experienced, read and have conducted research on quality teaching and Mark's approach is right on the money. Just tonight, after my survey research class, I had a conversation with my classmates about how the instructor is making our assignments "so complicated". Hey Mark, that might be a good name of a tune.
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BarbNY



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HJ wrote:
And let's address this issue: communication. Well JT, I am here to tell you from experience that yes, music IS about communication. When you play for an audience, you are communicating with them. And, the main objective is to have your music move people. If you're not doing that, what would be the reward for a person coming to see and hear you play?
Henry Johnson


Thank you, Henry! Not only are you a master at communicating through your music, but also a master at communicating with your words, as evidenced by your articulate post. Bravo!
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Mark
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: Good teaching Reply with quote

thaydon wrote:
I think good teaching is rare and when it occurs it has to be pointed out. I have experienced, read and have conducted research on quality teaching and Mark's approach is right on the money.


Todd,

Thanks SO much for the kind words, my friend. We obviously share the same passion regarding education, and that article was reflective of some 35+ years of personal observation and conclusions based on my mentors, my students, and yours truly. My good friend Wolf (Marshall) enjoyed the piece so much that he told me it now sits permanently on his music stand so he can refer to it on a regular basis. High praise coming from the man I consider the consummate guitar author of our time.

Barbara,

You and so many others know my feelings regarding Henry Johnson. HJ's not only an extraordinary musician but someone who truly cares about the path and helping others to see the light. I've seen SO much growth in my playing over the past year, and I attribute a great deal of it to his ongoing encouragement and recognition of the language that we share, based on a deep belief in transcribing the forefathers of blues and jazz. As far as I'm concerned, his presence here makes this forum the greatest jazz guitar newsgroup on the web, even if we are just in our infancy.

Dean,

Absolutely LOVED what you shared regarding your affinity for the blues! To me, jazz without the blues is music without soul, and I only wish that more players and educators felt like you instead of taking the blues for granted. Btw, since JT titled this topic "Meaning of the Blues," it's a perfect opportunity for us to discuss this subject, and the commonality of language between artists ranging from B.B. King and Buddy Guy to Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, and George Benson.

In my book, the blues rules, and despite any subtle differences of opinion about language definitions, I'd also like to thank JT for starting this topic, and the rest of you for participating! All for now...

- Mark
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HJ wrote:
Trust me, when I hang with George Benson or Pat Martino, we don't share information in this way; never have, and we never will.


That may be so but most of us are not George or pat and never will be,
So in an absence of talent of great pair of ears I will take every help
I can get - even from the evil theory if that can help me at some point.
If for nothing else it would be for organizing the knowledge. Letsay I try
to transcribe somebody's solo and I come across chord substitution that
I have seen in some other solo - knowing theory allows me to make
that connection and to compare those two players - find similarities in
their approach - perhaps due same set of infuences.

HJ wrote:

Another thing, words to songs ARE most important no matter what genre they're in. When I was growing up, all the older musicians knew the words to the songs they were playing, and demanded that my generation learn them too. Here's why: the words contain the emotional content of the songs that we play, especially standards. They tell us immediately what the song is about and the FEELING it's supposed to convey to people.


That is true - however I can listen to Edith Piaf or Kiri-Te-Kanawa doing
Mozart and be equally moved even though I do not speak a word of
French or Iralian. Semantics is only a portion of the story - equally
important is the fact that lyrycist or librettist took time to create set
of words that have inherent melody and rhythm.
And respectfully but I object against idea that we are "supposed" to
convey "feelings" to anybody when doing standards. I love Autumn
Leaves or Black Orpheus but do I always want to play those tunes
as sappy ballads about lost love or lost dreams? Hell no.

HJ wrote:

And I cannot say this enough: Jazz is a musical language. It is as simple as that. This has been told to me by every great jazz master I've hung out and played with. EVERY of genre of music has it's language, or "syntax" and jazz is no different.


I do not disagree - music is like a language. It has structure and syntax.
And it should be taught like a language - by internalizing whole phrases
before attempting to analyze them.
However music is NOT a language.


HJ wrote:

And let's address this issue: communication. Well JT, I am here to tell you from experience that yes, music IS about communication. When you play for an audience, you are communicating with them. And, the main objective is to have your music move people. If you're not doing that, what would be the reward for a person coming to see and hear you play?


Yes you communicate but that is entirely non-verbal type of information.
You never tell you audience about best receipe for miso soup or about
or how to repair a toaster. Music cannot do any of that - music is NOT
a language. And I have no idea why people want to listen to music -
I only know what attracts me in music - absolute freedom from material
world. I listen to Keith Jarret and travel half a way across Galaxy - and
that is precisely because there is nothing verbal, tangible or definite
about what he says - it does not tie you down to any particular image.

HJ wrote:

So JT, music IS about communicating and connecting with your audience on the most basic level of all; an emotional one. It's the most important thing of all.


In the end we end up on same page after all. I never tried to say anything
else - I only object against over-using language analogy wrt to music -
or the idea that music has to be about something. It is completely abstract
and therefore completely free. Even in such carnal for as blues.
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woland 99 ....I'am having a hard time with your post....everything in life is a language....language is just a word for communicating...if your a plummer or a doctor you have to be able to communicate know the language to do your job.It is the same thing in music .The deaf speak with their hands it's a language,if you don't know how to sign (know the language ) your going to have a hard time communicating.The indians used drums to talk .....it's a language...I have to say I enjoy reading your post because it make my mind go uummm What ?in a good way.I am really tring to get where your coming from.I guess I have not learned your language yet,but I'll keep tring.I have traveled quite alot,I'll pick Hong Kong for example I would go off the beaten path and tring to communicate was the fun part,and in the end we would understand each other.I would use everything around me to get a point across thus a language is born.
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Last edited by Dean on Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dean wrote:
I'am having a hard time with your post....everything in life is a language....language is just a word for communicating...


In a way - "language" as I understand - and as you use it in your examples
is a way of exchanging information. Language is a set of symbols with
attached meaning. I am not a philosopher nor do I have any deep
understanding of the philosophy of language. But when you say "everything
in life is language" I must disagree - eveything that can be meaningfully
analyzed is language but - thanks to God (despite being atheist) there are
things in life that re not just that. And music is one of them. I am not saying
that one cannot attach specific meaning to melodies. I am only saying that
music is most abstract form of art that does not need words or images
to be expressed or interpreted. Surely - roots all blues are vocal - and
best classic blues composition rely on dialogue between vocal and
instrumental part. Many blues guitarists want their instrument to mimic
human voice. But still - you can listen to blues recording that may have
badly recorded vocals - not understand one word and be equally moved.
And it can be a very carnal experience or it can be very cosmic one -
all things are connected in the end. But that connection point lies far
beyond any boundaries of the language.
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woland99...I think I'am starting to understand you a bit more.You have a very strict definition of the word language.you wrote.... I listen to Keith Jarret and travel half a way across Galaxy - and
that is precisely because there is nothing verbal, tangible or definite
about what he says - it does not tie you down to any particular image.
But in this case it does tie you to a particular image.....travel half way across Galaxy.That is what the music says to you ,it speaks to you as like a language.I love you for being true to yourself.You keep us on our toes.
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Last edited by Dean on Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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