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Harmonic Minor Scale

 
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Harmonic Minor Scale Reply with quote
I've noticed from transcribing and reading that a lot of players use a harmonic minor scale for playing over two-fives. Some people think of this scale as a mixolydian flat 9 flat 13 based on the dominant chord. Many of Mark's solos seem to have a flatted 9th played over the dominant chord. Is this the right way to think about playing over two fives?
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Mark
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Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Harmonic Minor Scale Reply with quote
nylenny wrote:
I've noticed from transcribing and reading that a lot of players use a harmonic minor scale for playing over two-fives. Some people think of this scale as a mixolydian flat 9 flat 13 based on the dominant chord. Many of Mark's solos seem to have a flatted 9th played over the dominant chord. Is this the right way to think about playing over two fives?


Len,

Great seeing you over hear again, my friend. As most of my students know, everything I use as an improviser and composer stems from sounds based on core language gleaned from transcribing my mentors. Scales and modes are just too limiting harmonically, besides being ineffective (for me) in achieving the creative result that you and others hear in my solos and originals.

It's somewhat analogous to using the blues or minor pentatonic scale to explain Albert King or Robben Ford. Scales/modes may serve as a frame of fingerboard reference and it doesn't hurt to know them, but there are SO many great things that they don't explain, which is why I use the "too limiting" term. You always have to ask yourself what the artist was thinking and hearing, and that question is what led to my logical conclusion that scale-based thinking is almost always "after-the-fact" analysis and not from the source itself.

Regarding the b9 over dominant chords? Sure, using a minor scale (usually ascending melodic) a half-step above the root of the dominant is part of many jazz discussions, but it's been a misguided, dead-end approach for me. Instead I just base what I know on great melodies and licks that use that note, like Bird and others.

With that in mind, check out the head for my recent Blues for Wes original tribute, and listen for the prominence of the Gb (b9 of F7) both at bar 10 (two-five) and at the end of bar 11 (turnaround). Btw, this is all part of my recent efforts to improvise jazz solos exclusively with the right-hand thumb a la Wes. All for now...

- Mark
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mark,

Are you saying stay away from the harmonic minor thinking and merely apply the minor over dominate ideas I already know (i.e. up a minor third, down a flatted 5th, flatted 9th - i.e Abm over G7 in the key of C, etc.)?

Don MacArthur
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nylenny



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don,

Could you please explain what you mean by up a minor third, down a flatted 5th? thanks.
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Don MacArthur



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I could attempt to explain it but think it might be better if Mark did it.

Don
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Mark
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:26 am    Post subject: Re: Playing Over II-V's Reply with quote
Don MacArthur wrote:
I could attempt to explain it but think it might be better if Mark did it.


Guys,

Again, I'm rarely thinking of a particular scale, but a sound that encompasses more than any preset series of tones. The minor 3rd or b5 reference for getting outside on a dominant relates to the IIm7 chord and the kind of call & response mirroring used by Bird and others in II-V-I situations.

Even though thinking a minor 3rd or b5 away from Dm (F minor and Ab minor) theoretically could include the Ab harmonic minor related to G, the main disadvantage of scale thinking is that you tend to limit yourself to just those tones, when core language teaches you that they are all legal. That's why great licks spawn great solos, and why legendary jazz guitarists like Wes, Benson, and Pass never practiced or used scales as an improvising resource. It's all about "sound" thinking. Wink

- Mark
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Dean



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't know much about the language,but I could really hear the phrasing when you were playing.Really cool,I think that's a call and response type of lick, phrasing.Very noticeable note changes in the licks.Just like talking over the chords.
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Dave Illig



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I played with the scale approach for years when I first started and I sounded like it.

I had an epiphany when I heard George play Breezin back in the 70's. I started stealing licks off that albumn. I couldn't tell you where they came from or what scale he used but they sounded great.

Since then it has been a never ending quest to add to my bag of sounds and licks. I am a pilot, and sometimes anal retentive can be my middle name. For me though, trying to analyze this stuff by fitting it into a specific scale just doesn't work. I have to take my pilot hat off and just play what sounds good, know where to use it and not get wrapped up in its source.

Let's say you decide you like the sound of a D# on a G7 chord and resolve it to and E when the changes go to Cmaj7. Man, that's all you need to know! Yeah, the C# could be part of Cm, but it could also be a part of a dozen other ideas, Abm, Adim, Db9 tritone etc. It is nice to use these concepts as a launching point, but, for me, it just detracts from my goal.

One thing I do to keep things on keel when I am playing is stay around shapes and positions. I think this is detrimental to my playing and am slowly trying to get away from it. Horn players can't see the shape of a chord on their instrument and if you watch Wes play he is just going for the notes and sounds, all over the neck. It is a life long process for me. Someday....

Dave
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