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nylenny
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291
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 Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: Saxophone Transcribing |
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| I noticed that Dexter plays behind the beat, but not consistently so. When I play with him, it viscerally feels like the time is slowing down when he goes behind the beat. I haven't been able to intellectually process it, however. Is that an appropriate way to go about it? In other words, if I can write it down and play along with him, does it matter if I actually hear the 'flam' between Dexter and the drummer? |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Saxophone Transcribing |
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| nylenny wrote: | | I noticed that Dexter plays behind the beat, but not consistently so. When I play with him, it viscerally feels like the time is slowing down when he goes behind the beat. I haven't been able to intellectually process it, however. Is that an appropriate way to go about it? In other words, if I can write it down and play along with him, does it matter if I actually hear the 'flam' between Dexter and the drummer? |
Len,
Transcribing sax? One of my favorite subjects. And Dexter Gordon? During my visit with Wolf earlier this year that's mainly what he wanted to talk about, so we spent a lot of time listening to Gordon's music, discussing his work and how it translates to guitar.
From a phrasing and nuance standpoint, I think it's highly valuable to be able to play along with an artist even if you can't intellectually process the time factor as accurately as you'd like. Success lies in the effort, so just notate what you're hearing as close as possible to the original source. I've often spent countless hours going over and over this or that passage trying to gauge the timing, and in the long run it really pays dividends to strain both your ear and your mind collectively. In other words, it's not always what ends up in notation that counts. All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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nylenny
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 291
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | From a phrasing and nuance standpoint, I think it's highly valuable to be able to play along with an artist even if you can't intellectually process the time factor as accurately as you'd like. Success lies in the effort, so just notate what you're hearing as close as possible to the original source. I've often spent countless hours going over and over this or that passage trying to gauge the timing, and in the long run it really pays dividends to strain both your ear and your mind collectively. |
Thank you for the insightful response, Mark. I agree totally. The trick is to, as Nike says, "just do it." And you are correct, just making the effort pays dividends. |
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John G
Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Speaking of transcribing sax players, has anyone ever tried to transcribe any of Sonny Stitt or Sonny Rollins' solos on "After Hours" from Dizzie Gillespie's classic "Sonny Side Up" album? I've been listening to that album for a few years and never really sat down with my guitar and tried to learn any of the lines until now. That is a GREAT one to work on, chorus after chorus of soulful blues from three masters- check it out! |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: Tom Scott on Guitar |
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| John G wrote: | | Speaking of transcribing sax players, has anyone ever tried to transcribe any of Sonny Stitt or Sonny Rollins' solos on "After Hours" from Dizzie Gillespie's classic "Sonny Side Up" album? I've been listening to that album for a few years and never really sat down with my guitar and tried to learn any of the lines until now. That is a GREAT one to work on, chorus after chorus of soulful blues from three masters- check it out! |
John,
I've transcribed some work by both Stitt and Rollins over the years, but not from that particular recording. I'll check it out, because I'm BIG on "soulful blues" regardless of the player or instrument.
Speaking of which...
While Bird, Trane, Turrentine, the guys you mentioned and many other sax players have had a significant impact on me over the years, so has the entire lineage of Junior Walker, Isaac "King" Curtis, and their many disciples, including one of my main influences, Tom Scott. He has a long, storied career, but the stuff he was doing in the mid-seventies (e.g. "Blow It Out" and "New York Connection") is some of the greatest horn playing and arranging that I've ever heard, to this day. I not only transcribed all of Tom's solos from those releases, but all of the backup horn parts as well.
Adapting those kinds of sax ideas to guitar has totally changed the way I play, to the degree where I sometimes consider myself "A saxophonist trapped in a guitar player's body."  For me, it's a GREAT place to be, and I hear very few guitarists who have that kind of blues language and funky phrasing under their belt, because you have to go to the source to get it. All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Larry_DC
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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I transcribed some of Dexter Gordon's phrases for the first time this weekend. I was searching YouTube for some examples of Blues Walk by Clifford Brown. I found a video of Dexter playing a song called Loose Walk, which he said was written by Sonny Stitt. Lo and behold, it's the same song.
Anyway, I am so glad I stumbled on this video. Dexter plays forever and lays down some incredible lines. Now that Transcribe! copies videos I downloaded the clip and have plenty of work to do. I see what Lenny means about Dexter's timing. I learned a long time ago to forget trying to accurately notate those nuances and just try to develop the sense of time. |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Larry_DC wrote: | | I learned a long time ago to forget trying to accurately notate those nuances and just try to develop the sense of time. |
Larry,
The reality is that written notation is a facsimile of the real thing at best, and that even includes classical music. It all comes down to ear, feel, and personal interpretation, and those "nuances" that you refer to comprise the intangible benefits of learning by ear that non-transcribers will never experience.
That being said, I do think it's worthwhile to try to accurately notate them, because the very process is such an intense ear experience that all of a sudden you'll find yourself improving in other areas as a result of the effort. You just have to avoid getting too crazy about it. 
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Larry_DC
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: | You just have to avoid getting too crazy about it.
- Mark |
I hear ya! I once spent 45 minutes trying to notate one three-note phrase that Miles played slightly off-beat. Talk about OCD. |
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:52 am Post subject: |
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I will play a song,get the notes or chords down...then listen to the song for those little blips of personal touch the player gives it.
I learned Setting On the Dock of the Bay and then went to you tube ,to check out all the ways it was being played...most players were skipping notes on the quick three note run.To get that run ,it is all in the struming.Two down ,one up ,then run.
I said all that to say,if the player is playing behind the beat..just lock into the player and don't think about the beat as much.
As Larry said ,The reality is that written notation is a facsimile of the real thing at best.
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