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thaydon
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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 Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: Doubling on Bass |
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I was wondering if anyone plays bass as well as jazz/blues guitar. If so has bass playing improved your guitar playing, and do you play with fingers or pick?
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sincerely yours,
Todd |
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Larry_DC
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about this. I am contemplating taking Mark's bass class. A friend of mine started out on bass before switching to guitar says the experience helped him develop a good sense of rhythm and timing, not to mention chord structure. |
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thaydon
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: Doubling on Bass |
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Larry.
I am taking a plunge and buying a bass tomorrow and going to start the bass LBM. If you decide to do the same we can share our experiences. For some reason, last week I bought a Jaco CD and at a recent jazz concert was focusing in on the bass. I would love some day to lay down a walking bass line in a combo setting.
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sincerely yours,
Todd |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Doubling on Bass |
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| Todd wrote: | | I was wondering if anyone plays bass as well as jazz/blues guitar. If so has bass playing improved your guitar playing, and do you play with fingers or pick? |
Todd,
Thanks for bringing up one of my favorite subjects. Let me start off by saying that, regardless of whether someone studies on their own, with me, or with any other instructor, EVERY guitarist with any interest in jazz should double on bass. I mean... I can't even begin to imagine where I'd be as a guitarist and composer nowadays without my bass experience.
To put things into perspective regarding doubling on the singular most important instrument (genre aside), understand that I'm not talking about playing some fancy 5 or 6 string fretless and a heavy commitment or time investment, but just a standard, relatively inexpensive 4-string fretted with a narrower, guitar-friendly neck and as little as 15 minutes practice per day.
Okay, off the top of my head...
TOP TEN REASONS TO PLAY JAZZ BASS
You get to improvise while supplying accompaniment.
You're actually expected to take bass solos! 
You develop a deeper understanding of functional harmony.
You build physical strength and stamina in your left-hand.
You improve the ability to use your right-hand fingers.
You're in demand, because EVERYONE needs a bass player.
Your command of timing and syncopation improves.
You can play bebop/blues heads a la Jaco (nothing like it).
You learn to sight-read and write proficiently in bass clef.
You become a FAR superior guitarist and composer.
I've got much more to share on the subject, and can also post up a few audio excerpts from the lesson program and recordings if you'd like? Just let me know.
Anyway, I realize that "You can only lead a guitarist to water......"  , but it's encouraging to hear that you guys are interested in bass, because I know from personal experience what it will do for you. It's worth getting on the soap box from time to time and sharing a big part of my success with anyone who may be interested. All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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thaydon
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: Doubling on Bass |
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Mark;
Yes, i would really like to hear the audio clips.
Can you talk more about how bass playing develops a deeper understanding of functional harmony?
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sincerely yours,
Todd |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:55 am Post subject: Re: Doubling on Bass |
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| Todd wrote: | Yes, i would really like to hear the audio clips.
Can you talk more about how bass playing develops a deeper understanding of functional harmony? |
Todd,
Sure thing (see below). Since the bass role is so critically important, both from a harmonic and timing perspective, to the success of any ensemble performance, you really have to develop a knack for understanding the foundation of a tune or progression.
For instance, I've often been around pianists (and some guitarists) who like to strut their classroom theory stuff when it comes to chord subs and such. However, as a bassist if you take those sub changes too literally without relating to the true harmony lurking below, you can easily lose the feel and essence of the tune. This is where the Mingus quote "Creativity is making the complicated simple" rears its head for me. Figures it comes from a great jazz bassist, eh?
Then there's the compositional side of what I do, because I write a lot of originals and the vast majority of them are defined in personality by the role of the bass. The bottom line (so to speak) is that it's an incredibly important instrument in any scenario, therefore whatever knowledge you glean from playing and studying it makes you a better musician. The fact that it's physically so related to the guitar makes it a natural double.
Audio clips:
Here's a little Bird II-V Lick to give you an idea of how FAT a standard II-V can sound on the instrument. Brief vocal description up front and taken right from a course chapter.
Next check out a discussion of transposing a classic Ketter Betts Basie Walk from the key of C to the key of F. Also from the course, where one of the primary goals is to establish the ability to deliver powerful walks on the fly.
Last but not least, Bird's Ornithology done on solo bass. One of the smartest things I did over thirty years ago was to convert hundreds of blues and bebop heads/melodies to the bass (a la Jaco and Donna Lee), which became my daily technical workout. I even stopped playing them on the guitar altogether and would just use my bass fingerings, with the only exception being if I needed the head in a higher octave on occasion. I played lots of bass gigs back then, and it was fun knowing so many heads and being featured playing them with keys, sax, trumpet, etc.
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
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I know my son plays bass,as it has a huge relationship to the drums.
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What don't kill you makes you stronger |
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thaydon
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Doubling on Bass |
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Mark;
Ok it makes sense now about the harmony and bass and thanks for the audio clips!
I am thinking 'good bye pork pie hat' is a good first tune to start listening to and transcribing?
Dean;
What kind of style of music does your son play?
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sincerely yours,
Todd |
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Larry_DC
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Doubling on Bass |
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| thaydon wrote: | | If you decide to do the same we can share our experiences. |
Todd,
That's a good idea. If jump on the bass wagon it will be in November. I'm taking Mark's R&B course and the jazz LBM right now. I'll have to play catch-up. |
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:46 am Post subject: Re: Doubling on Bass |
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| thaydon wrote: | Mark;
Dean;
What kind of style of music does your son play? |
He plays all styles,he set in with the jazz class at USC and jamed with a top jazz guy at PIT in La.He wants to take a trip to Cuba sometime to jam with them.In Cuba drums are almost a religon.He leans more Alt. style.He has played with some known people and he almost went on tour with, Sing the body eletric, who opened for the Foo Fighters.
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thaydon
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: Doubling on Bass |
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When playing bass with the fingers do players use "free style" or "rest stroke" or a combination of both to play notes? also do players rest the thumb on the bottom string and use fingers for strings 3,2,1 and use the thumb for the bottom string?
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sincerely yours,
Todd |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Doubling on Bass |
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| thaydon wrote: | | When playing bass with the fingers do players use "free style" or "rest stroke" or a combination of both to play notes? also do players rest the thumb on the bottom string and use fingers for strings 3,2,1 and use the thumb for the bottom string? |
Todd,
Rest stroke all the way. That's how you control your volume outside of the amp and volume control on the instrument itself. Of course, the obvious exception to the rule would be when plucking double-stops or chords.
I rest my thumb on the 4th string when playing notes on the other three strings, and let the thumb lightly graze the surface below when I want to play the low string. This is for most situations outside of funk & slap, where the thumb gets into the picture, generally on the bottom two strings. Much like the guitar, there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to technical approach. Whatever works to achieve the feel and sound is the ultimate goal.
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Larry_DC
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I see I have a lot to learn about bass. What do you guys mean by "rest stroke?" |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Rest Strokes |
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| Larry_DC wrote: | | I see I have a lot to learn about bass. What do you guys mean by "rest stroke?" |
Larry,
It's a term associated with classical guitar but relative to the right-hand technique used on the bass. All it means is that the plucking finger comes to rest on the lower adjacent string. The entire motion is more of a "tugging" or "pulling" action as opposed to fingerpicking (aka "free stroke"), where the finger lifts instead.
A rest stroke can be extremely light or you can use the full force of the finger (or anything in between), hence the natural volume control. It's used almost 100% of the time when walking or soloing on bass. All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Larry_DC
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Mark,
That makes sense. When I played bass (briefly) years ago I read that you should rest your right wrist along the guitar's ridge line and use mainly the index and middle fingers to pull. Is that true? |
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