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ii-V-I-VI

 
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: ii-V-I-VI Reply with quote
It is probably entirely trivial observation for you but somehow
I never noticed it before but ii7-V7-Imaj7-VI7 is really the same as
ii7-#Vdim7-iii7-#VIdim7. All I need is two shapes two frets apart.
And since dim7 is easily movable by min 3rd you can suddenly have
tons of comping options. I wonder about scales though - over #Vdim7
I guess you can play VI harmonic minor? So ii7-#Vdim7-iii7-#VIdim7
you would have II dorian - VI harm min - III dorian - VII harm min ?
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Mark
VM Coach


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: ii-V-I-VI Reply with quote
woland99 wrote:
It is probably entirely trivial observation for you but somehow I never noticed it before but ii7-V7-Imaj7-VI7 is really the same as ii7-#Vdim7-iii7-#VIdim7. All I need is two shapes two frets apart. And since dim7 is easily movable by min 3rd you can suddenly have tons of comping options. I wonder about scales though - over #Vdim7 I guess you can play VI harmonic minor? So ii7-#Vdim7-iii7-#VIdim7 you would have II dorian - VI harm min - III dorian - VII harm min ?


JT,

Hi! First of all, for jazz study purposes and practical application, you should invert the order of that chord progression to I-VI7-IIm7-V7 with the understanding that the I chord could be a maj7 or dom7 depending on the situation. And in almost all scenarios in bebop tunes, standards, and swing blues, the chords are given two beats apiece. This sequence is classified as the all-important "Turnaround to One" progression, critical for successful changes improvisation.

Second, what you describe beyond the basic harmony are just subs that shouldn't be taken too literally. IIIm7 subs for the I chord and the #V and #VI diminished are nothing more than V7b9 and VI7b9. Yes, of course they are related to the diminished family, resulting in the potential of ideas moved in minor 3rds. Remember the Bird Magic lesson we did long ago?

Third, the reality here is that you shouldn't be thinking scales in handling this sequence, and especially individual scales for each change, because you simply don't have enough time to think that fast. That's why great players like Bird and Trane worked out ideas (licks/concepts) well in advance to minimize the thought process during their jazz solos.

Finally, do what I did many years ago and devote a section of a personal lick book to this progression, organized by the starting pitch relevant to the key itself. This keeps things simple in the long run and frees your mind to just feel the music and improvise. All for now...

- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus
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woland99



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: Re: ii-V-I-VI Reply with quote
Mark wrote:

Second, what you describe beyond the basic harmony are just subs that shouldn't be taken too literally. IIIm7 subs for the I chord and the #V and #VI diminished are nothing more than V7b9 and VI7b9. Yes, of course they are related to the diminished family, resulting in the potential of ideas moved in minor 3rds. Remember the Bird Magic lesson we did long ago?


Thanks Mark - yes of course I remember minor 3rd ideas and Bird Magic
lesson - just that substitution of dom 7 chord by raised dim 7 and ability
to slide dim7 by minor 3rd seems to explain that part well
(and give you 2 other alterations for free).

And yes - the whole gist of that "discovery" was simplification of comping.
Now I need only 2 shapes - min7 and dim7 (played 2 frets apart) and one
of them is movable by 3 frets which gives me mobility to start in different
area of the neck so as long as I know few shapes (and maybe throw
in occasional extra notes into min7 chords - go back from Em7 to Cmaj7 etc)
I can keep stringing them.
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