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thaydon
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: Satin Doll |
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My ear tells me that I can use the "bird magic" moves over Satin
Doll in the beginning even though they are not initially
resolving.
I play the 2-5 without resolving over D minor and then repeat for
E minor. Is this right? Anyone have any thoughts?
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sincerely yours,
Todd |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Satin Doll |
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| thaydon wrote: | My ear tells me that I can use the "bird magic" moves over Satin Doll in the beginning even though they are not initially
resolving. I play the 2-5 without resolving over D minor and then repeat for E minor. Is this right? Anyone have any thoughts? |
Todd,
Sure you can use those Bird moves (e.g. Dm & Fm or Dm & Abm) at that spot in Satin Doll, or for that matter any other II-V in your vocabulary. What makes this tune interesting harmonically is what follows (Em7 to A7).
Here's the deal...
The IIIm7-VI7, when it appears in this context as a long phrase (four beats apiece) shouldn't be treated as a conventional II-V. Trust me, because I've tried in the past and always wondered why things didn't quite sound right. 
Treat the Em7 as what it is, a sub for CMaj7, in which case you can go with C major ideas, either melodic or major blues. When the band hits the A7 you can stay with that game plan or play a short II-V (Em7 to A7) over that measure.
This is one of many effective approaches that stem from so many years of transcribing and observing great jazz improvisers. Hope this helps, and it's good to see a tune from the Jam Central Station page brought up in the forum, given the fact that there are almost 200 tracks and that over 2000 players are improvising there daily. I hope to see more comments and questions regarding Satin Doll and other JCS tunes in the near future. After all, what a perfect opportunity to share ideas and instantly try them out right here at VM. All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Dave Illig
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: |
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I really like Mark's thoughts on this, great stuff.
One of the things I like to do sometimes on those changes is to treat them like static dominant chords. G7 for two measures and A7 for two measures. That opens up all of the blues and/or dominant chord licks that can be used.
Another way I look at it is as a Dm and then Em. Since the II/V's don't resolve I tend look at them as separate entities.
Somtimes I look at the Dm/G7/Em as a two five resolving to C and then think of the A7 as the VI in a VI/II/V/I resolving to the C at the end of the first A section.
Bottom line, I look at II/V's as either resolving or not resolving.
I am sure this will generate some controversy, but it is how I look at things.
Dave
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The hippest note you can play is a rest. |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Illig wrote: | | Bottom line, I look at II/V's as either resolving or not resolving. I am sure this will generate some controversy, but it is how I look at things. |
Dave,
No controversy from me, because you are right on the $$ with that statement. From the very beginning in working with aspiring jazz players, I get them involved with long two-fives (two measures) and the reality that the harmonic content over the V is always inside, outside, or blues. The first approach doesn't suggest resolution, while the other two exhibit the need to resolve.
Of course, everything comes down to making smooth connections based on solid language, and all it takes is one good note in the right spot for that to happen. All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Don MacArthur
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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All,
This is great stuff!!
I haven't tried to improvise over Satin Doll yet, but if I had I would have jumped right on trying a long ii-V over Em7 to A7 over measures 2 and 3. I don't think I would have thought of Em7 as a sub for Cmaj7. Now that Mark mentioned it I can avoid that mistake.
Don MacArthur |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Don MacArthur wrote: | | This is great stuff!! I haven't tried to improvise over Satin Doll yet, but if I had I would have jumped right on trying a long ii-V over Em7 to A7 over measures 2 and 3. I don't think I would have thought of Em7 as a sub for Cmaj7. Now that Mark mentioned it I can avoid that mistake. |
Don,
And just think... we're only talking about ONE two-bar section in ONE 32-bar standard. Given the almost 200 tracks at the JCS page and the number of players (2000+) over there daily, imagine the potential discussions that could take place here. Listen Here, Stormy Monday, Giant Steps, Rhythm Changes, Freight Trane, Round Midnight, C Jam Blues, etc, etc.
If you or any other forum member wishes, simply start a thread using a JCS song title (like Todd has done with Satin Doll and Tune Up) and let the games begin. The great thing is that any ideas, licks, or concepts posted can instantly be applied to the appropriate track without ever leaving the website. This is exactly what I envisioned when we set up these forum sub-topics long ago. Better late than never, eh?
One more thing...
There is nothing that beats experience based on years of language observation and trial & error efforts when it comes to improvisation. That's where my father saved me lots of time and potential frustration by pointing the way on any given part of a tune. Sometimes it's as simple as find one note. In the case of Satin Doll and our discussion, it's a matter of peeking under the hood and realizing how a chord is functioning, instead of taking it at face value and going down the wrong road harmonically. All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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