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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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 Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Brad, I get you.Muddy has a lot of three note licks,that just hold everything on their own.Kind of like da dada ta da,or do ta do ta dnt,or da duuuuuu ta dnt.I like that stuff,and it can be played anywhere on the neck.I am still digesting a lot of the great information in this thread,but I have a better understanding of getting the most out of practice time.I learned a new blues piece yesterday.It has kind of a Chuck Berry rhythm,fast tempo ,but I picked it up just fine.I added a little slide on it for the end.
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Recycling Licks |
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| Brad Kinder wrote: | | I'll recycle licks and try to apply them to different chord types.... a cmajor idea over Am or Am idea over D7 would be some basic examples. I've noticed players like Wes and Grant Green were doing this stuff quite a bit. Taking the same simple idea and milking it for all it was worth in different situations. |
Brad,
Recycling licks is what it's all about for me. I even did a little "Licks As Seeds" narrative some time ago, because it's truly astounding what can grow from planting just one lick, and then spinning variations from it.
Not only do I apply them to different chords (as you describe) during solos, but I use my favorites deliberately as a basis for model solos and original heads, which is a terrific way to get them forever ingrained in a personally creative manner. For instance, if I base a composition on a lick from Oscar Peterson or Tom Scott, every time I play the tune it's like re-transcribing it again, or taking a private lesson from a great player.
Last but not least, too many players associate a lick only with the solo that it came from, instead of realizing that the fun really begins when you take the lick out of that context, blend it with your existing vocabulary, and then apply it in a fresh situation. That, to me, is when it really becomes a part of your own artistic expression. All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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thaydon
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: Quality vs Quantity |
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Mark;
So when Parker composed Donna Lee and other tunes (based off of solos) that is what you are talking about?
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sincerely yours,
Todd |
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Brad Kinder
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Larry_DC wrote: | | You guys listen up when Brad talks. I think he was the Guitar Center Blues King last year. |
Larry, thanks man. Not to get OT but credit where credit is due....Aaron Leosch out of Houston won the main King of the Blues contest. I won the smaller prize of the online, blues song contest. Aaron won about $40,000 more in prizes than I did but I'm lovin the 335 they sent me! |
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Brad Kinder
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Recycling Licks |
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| Mark wrote: | Last but not least, too many players associate a lick only with the solo that it came from, instead of realizing that the fun really begins when you take the lick out of that context, blend it with your existing vocabulary, and then apply it in a fresh situation. That, to me, is when it really becomes a part of your own artistic expression. All for now...
- Mark |
That's exactly my approach Mark. I know an idea really doesn't become ingrained and my own until I've put it through the ringer like this. I also like to take the exact same lick and build it off different chord tones, ignoring how it may fit the key/scale. I get some interesting tension and outside sounds like that. Some good and some not-so-good but it's fun to experiment. |
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: Re: Model Solos & More |
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| thaydon wrote: | | So when Parker composed Donna Lee and other tunes (based off of solos) that is what you are talking about? |
Todd,
Exactly. The same goes for Anthropology, Dexterity, and other Bird solos over the classic Rhythm Changes, Ornithology (aka How High the Moon), Scrapple the Apple, and numerous blues heads.
After I had struggled for many years, even though I had transcribed and was aware of core language elements (II-V's, turnarounds, etc), I was still having problems applying what I knew on the fly. I was frustrated but began to take a deeper look at competent jazz improvisers, including Wes, Bird, and even my own father. Many things all of a sudden dawned on me. One was that Wes played CC solos note for note for the first three years of his public performing life, because he found it difficult to improvise.
Beyond Bird's originals, historically it's been well-documented that he was a poor improviser until he learned Coleman Hawkins and Lester Young solos note for note, so the learning process of two jazz innovators was firmly rooted in model solos, and not just their own. All of this was a major epiphany for me, so I decided to start composing model solos as a means to an end, with the goal being application of core language and a better command of standard progressions. It's been a HUGE part of my success, as my spontaneous solos have gotten better and better as a direct result.
Btw, I haven't mentioned my A.R.T. (for ARTistic) philosophy in this discussion, but since this is all about quality study, the "A" stands for Arranging, the "R" for Recording, and the "T" for Transcribing. When you really stop to think about it, all three are interconnected and are superior forms of study, because they involve multiple senses. In the case of model solos, you transcribe to acquire the language, arrange what you learn in order to assimilate it, then record your efforts to gauge your progress from an objective listener's point of view.
| Brad Kinder wrote: | | That's exactly my approach Mark. I know an idea really doesn't become ingrained and my own until I've put it through the ringer like this. I also like to take the exact same lick and build it off different chord tones, ignoring how it may fit the key/scale. I get some interesting tension and outside sounds like that. Some good and some not-so-good but it's fun to experiment. |
Brad,
Yes, we are obviously on the same page, my friend. Speaking of getting outside, have you checked out the Diminished Door topic? Last night I recorded just a few bars of something related that I think you and the others will really dig. Watch for it soon over there. All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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thaydon
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 80
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: Quality vs Quantity |
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Thanks Mark;
Yes, I am beginning to see the light (no pun intended) on this topic. For example, today I used JCS page to incorporate Miles Davis solo's over Oleo on Rhythm Changes and will record a chorus when I have it under my fingers. So I really like the model solo idea.
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sincerely yours,
Todd
Last edited by thaydon on Tue May 13, 2008 10:30 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Bob Parsons
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: Practice |
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I'm not the best "practicer" in the world, but I have taken one thing to heart. Mark has said practice what you play. That works for me. I do a couple of things that really work well. One, I run an audio line from the TV/Cable/DVD player over to a Pandora Box PX3. From that I can listen to the tube, watch a DVD and have the sound mixed in with my guitar through the headphones. I never watch a movie without playing through it. Sometimes playing gets lonely and the tube just helps keep me awake.
The other thing I do, which I haven't seen mentioned is play out in front of people. I gig my own tunes once a week and jam with others about once or twice. When I play my own gigs I record them. I'm pretty objective. There is some really great stuff sometimes. Sometimes there are seeds of things that can be enhanced, and there are things that need to go by the wayside. But all of this to me is very practical in finding my voice.
BTW my kit is an acoustic guitar set up with a pickup. Either an archtop or a make-my-own Howard Roberts. I play through a Boss GT-6 into a Yamaha P/A. I tap into that P/A and send a line out to a Boss BR-600 digital recorder. Almost, everything you hear on my website is a live cut from that rig.
bp
bp |
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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I'am doing the playing in front of people now ,due to the classes I am taking.It is a lot of fun.I have now been pared up with a guy and we are doing blues in E with a solo.The teacher asked me back for the advanced class next semester,thought that was cool,as he seemed to really want me there.He asked what I want to progress on ,and of course I said blues and jazz.Mark, you will be happy to know ,I will get to play what I want to play,and my practice time will be spent practicing what I would play.My reading is coming along ,too.I could memorize a piece ,but I don't so I can get faster at reading.
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Bob Parsons
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: Practice |
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Dean,
You know, I think as long as you play for someone, even if a family member, it does something to make you self conscious about what you know and about what needs work. I find that the smaller the audience the more intense and nervous I get!
BTW, I love to practice with Mark's Assembly Lines -- the blues series that TrueFire was handling. I don't say this just because this is Mark's domain, I think it is the best stuff on the market.
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I hear you Don,and thanks for the support and knowledge.I am moving along at a great pace,with the help of this forum and all the great people in it.Like I said ,I hope to post some of my stuff soon.
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Mark
VM Coach
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 479
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Assemble Lines (plus) |
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| Bob Parsons wrote: | You know, I think as long as you play for someone, even if a family member, it does something to make you self conscious about what you know and about what needs work. I find that the smaller the audience the more intense and nervous I get!
BTW, I love to practice with Mark's Assembly Lines -- the blues series that TrueFire was handling. I don't say this just because this is Mark's domain, I think it is the best stuff on the market. |
Thanks, Bob! TrueFire's founder (Brad Wendkos) contacted me originally and proposed working together, citing our mutual affinity for the blues and knowing that I had transcribed a mountain of material from players like Benson, Burrell, Grant Green, Robben Ford, etc. So, in all honesty when you bring up what's on the market, there's a lot of interest in blues but very little available dealing with that end of the genre. Btw, we have a new set of video lesson discs on the horizon, this time based on swing blues, one of my favorite styles to teach and play.
I couldn't agree more with you regarding small audiences and especially family members, who tend to take you for granted and expect perfection. Since you're a fellow instructor, I'm sure you enjoy the pressure of having a student's eyes riveted on your every move during a lesson. Despite nervousness or intensity, sometimes if I'm doing something particularly complicated, I really thrive on "walking the tightrope" without losing my balance.  All for now...
- Mark
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus |
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Bob Parsons
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Anchorage, AK
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: Practice |
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Julie Andrews had a very troubled life--poverty, abuse in the home etc... Permit me an excerpt from the book:
Julie Andrews, Home, Hyperion,
Copyright 2008 by Julie Andrews,
pp.
117-119.
Here she performs in front of her mother and her highly regarded vocal coach, the demanding Madame Stiles-Allen, whose kind word at a mortifying moment is still remembered 58 years later:
"During my lessons with her, Madame gave me a
valuable piece of advice, which has stayed with me
over the years. 'Julie,' she said. 'Remember: the
amateur works until he can get it right. The
professional works until he cannot go
wrong.' ..." |
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: |
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I'LL quote my dad, " Work or quit "
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Dean
Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 287
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Mark, speaking of nerves,man when I play with friends or family I do ok,but when I was taking the guitar classes ,every time I started to play a piece for the class,I would get all flustered.Any help on this that I can practice,anyone?
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